1. Standard memberwolfgang59
    Infidel
    Dunedin
    Joined
    09 Jun '07
    Moves
    45641
    11 Feb '10 22:01
    (The thread title is a quote from Whodey.)

    I think that one of the appealing features of Christianity (and perhaps more so: Catholicism) is the forgivness of sins.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but doesnt this forgiveness over-ride all aspirations to 'justice'?

    Wasnt the OT 'an eye for an eye' and the NT 'turn the other cheek'?

    I believe this Christian viewpoint is a great contribution to western thinking; forgiveness/rehabilitation above justice/revenge.

    Of course we still have a long, long way to go!!
  2. Territories Unknown
    Joined
    05 Dec '05
    Moves
    20408
    12 Feb '10 00:33
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    (The thread title is a quote from Whodey.)

    I think that one of the appealing features of Christianity (and perhaps more so: Catholicism) is the forgivness of sins.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but doesnt this forgiveness over-ride all aspirations to 'justice'?

    Wasnt the OT 'an eye for an eye' and the NT 'turn the other cheek'?

    I believe this Chris ...[text shortened]... rehabilitation above justice/revenge.

    Of course we still have a long, long way to go!!
    What most people miss in the whole consideration--- and what inadvertently results in a perspective of God as an old sentimental fool--- is that justice is truly never set aside. Instead, the justice of God is in full view when we consider the cross. All that was supposed to come to us for our trespass against God's perfect standard, went to the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross.

    God certainly did not set aside His judgment because we are such an endearing group of folks. The full judgment of sin was placed fully, squarely on the shoulders of Him who bore the cross as an afterthought.
  3. Standard memberwolfgang59
    Infidel
    Dunedin
    Joined
    09 Jun '07
    Moves
    45641
    12 Feb '10 00:47
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    What most people miss in the whole consideration--- and what inadvertently results in a perspective of God as an old sentimental fool--- is that justice is truly never set aside. Instead, the justice of God is in full view when we consider the cross. All that was supposed to come to us for our trespass against God's perfect standard, went to the Lord Jes ...[text shortened]... f sin was placed fully, squarely on the shoulders of Him who bore the cross as an afterthought.
    Is it never too late to repent?
  4. Standard memberua41
    Sharp Edge
    Dulling my blade
    Joined
    11 Dec '09
    Moves
    14434
    12 Feb '10 00:51
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Is it never too late to repent?
    The thief on the cross got his salvation right before his death
  5. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10087
    12 Feb '10 04:224 edits
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Correct me if I'm wrong but doesnt this forgiveness over-ride all aspirations to 'justice'?
    It depends on what laws are in play. For example, a guy I know got pulled over for speeding the other day. The officer had him dead to rights. However, he called his lawyer and his lawyer told him that he could help him. How?

    His lawyer explained to him that the first order of business was to petition to get the case out of the local court that the violation occured and transferred it into another court that allowed him to wheel and deal. Then on his court date, the lawyer met up with the officer and got the violation reduced from a moving violation to a nonmoving violation. How? The only explanation is that the lawyer knew the laws on the books and knew exactly how to proceed to help protect his client whom he cared about. He said that unfortunatly for others before him in the court room, they had no representation. Each one the judge lowered the gavel and they were sentenced either guilty or no contest.

    You may say that justice was not served in this case. However, the man still had to pay a fine for the nonmoving violation. The difference was that no points were placed on his liscence and would not haunt him thereafter in terms of insurance rates being levied against him etc. In comparison, Christ is our lawyer in much the same way. We wil pay the fine for our sin, which is physical death, sickness, tempreal sufering etc., but no points will be placed on our licsense which will haunt us thereafter. Was justice served? Accroding to the law on the books justice was served. I don't pretend to know the law of the land nor the laws of God to be such an advocate, but I know someone who is. 😉
  6. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    12 Feb '10 04:51
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Correct me if I'm wrong but doesnt this forgiveness over-ride all aspirations to 'justice'?
    What would be an even greater contribution to modern thinking would be the realization that 'payment for sins' is not justice, nor does any form of payment either by the perpetrator or as FreakyKBH suggests by a third party, make the sin 'go away' or become 'right'.
    If you commit murder, the act is irreversible. At some point we need to accept that that is the case, and no amount of payment or forgiveness will change that. Further, the major crime is against the person murdered and not against God and thus seeking forgiveness from God in this case achieves nothing.

    I have addressed this topic a number of times and I am jet to find anyone who can give a satisfactory explanation (other than 'its tradition'😉 for the concept of payment for sins.
  7. Standard memberBosse de Nage
    Zellulärer Automat
    Spiel des Lebens
    Joined
    27 Jan '05
    Moves
    83887
    12 Feb '10 04:57
    As far as I know, the point of repentance is to transform your attitudes and behaviour so that you don't retransgress.
  8. England
    Joined
    15 Nov '03
    Moves
    33497
    12 Feb '10 11:49
    if there is no one to account for my sin then i must pay for that sin.
    every sin will be accounted for, and every good deed will be held in balance,.
    where is the justice, with gods son
  9. Standard memberBosse de Nage
    Zellulärer Automat
    Spiel des Lebens
    Joined
    27 Jan '05
    Moves
    83887
    12 Feb '10 11:56
    'Original sin' is a doctrine promulgated by a novelist called Augustine. If I were Christian, I'd ignore it altogether and take a more Eastern soteriological line: salvation as health, wellbeing in the utmost degree.
  10. Joined
    19 Jul '08
    Moves
    77354
    12 Feb '10 12:23
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    (The thread title is a quote from Whodey.)

    I think that one of the appealing features of Christianity (and perhaps more so: Catholicism) is the forgivness of sins.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but doesnt this forgiveness over-ride all aspirations to 'justice'?

    Wasnt the OT 'an eye for an eye' and the NT 'turn the other cheek'?

    I believe this Chris ...[text shortened]... rehabilitation above justice/revenge.

    Of course we still have a long, long way to go!!
    "THE RANSOM"
    Put simply, the ransom is God’s means to deliver, or save, humankind from sin and death. (Ephesians 1:7) To grasp the meaning of this Bible teaching, we need to think back to what happened in the garden of Eden. Only if we understand what Adam lost when he sinned can we appreciate why the ransom is such a valuable gift to us.
    When he created Adam, Jehovah gave him something truly precious—perfect human life. Consider what that meant for Adam. Made with a perfect body and mind, he would never get sick, grow old, or die. As a perfect human, he had a special relationship with Jehovah. The Bible says that Adam was a “son of God.” (Luke 3:38) So Adam enjoyed a close relationship with Jehovah God, like that of a son with a loving father. Jehovah communicated with his earthly son, giving Adam satisfying assignments of work and letting him know what was expected of him.—Genesis 1:28-30; 2:16, 17.
    Adam was made “in God’s image.” (Genesis 1:27) That did not mean that Adam resembled God in appearance. But Jehovah does not have a body of flesh and blood. Being made in God’s image meant that Adam was created with qualities like those of God, including love, wisdom, justice, and power. Adam was like his Father in another important way in that he possessed free will. Hence, Adam was not like a machine that can perform only what it is designed or programmed to do. Instead, he could make personal decisions, choosing between right and wrong. If he had chosen to obey God, he would have lived forever in Paradise on earth.
    Clearly, then, when Adam disobeyed God and was condemned to death, he paid a very high price. His sin cost him his perfect human life with all its blessings. (Genesis 3:17-19) Sadly, Adam lost this precious life not only for himself but also for his future offspring. God’s Word says: “Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.” (Romans 5:12) Yes, all of us have inherited sin from Adam. Hence, the Bible says that he “sold” himself and his offspring into slavery to sin and death. (Romans 7:14) There was no hope for Adam or Eve because they willfully chose to disobey God. But what about their offspring, including us?
    Jehovah came to mankind’s rescue by means of the ransom. What is a ransom? The idea of a ransom basically involves two things. First, a ransom is the price paid to bring about a release or to buy something back. It might be compared to the price paid for the release of a prisoner of war. Second, a ransom is the price that covers, or pays, the cost of something. It is similar to the price paid to cover the damages caused by an injury. For example, if a person causes an accident, he would have to pay an amount that fully corresponds to, or equals, the value of what was damaged.
    "What does the ransom mean?"
    The forgiveness of sins. Because of inherited imperfection, we have a real struggle to do what is right. All of us sin either in word or in deed. But by means of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, we can receive “the forgiveness of our sins.” (Colossians 1:13, 14) To gain that forgiveness, however, we must be truly repentant. We must also humbly appeal to Jehovah, asking his forgiveness on the basis of our faith in the ransom sacrifice of his Son.—1 John 1:8, 9.
    Also we will have a clean conscience before God. A guilty conscience can easily lead to hopelessness and make us feel worthless. Through the forgiveness made possible by the ransom, though, Jehovah kindly enables us to worship him with a clean conscience despite our imperfection. (Hebrews 9:13, 14) This makes it possible for us to have freeness of speech with God. Therefore, we can freely approach him in prayer. (Hebrews 4:14-16) Maintaining a clean conscience gives peace of mind, promotes self-respect, and contributes to happiness.

    Sorry about the pasting but this is much quicker then I can type...
  11. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10087
    12 Feb '10 12:39
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    As far as I know, the point of repentance is to transform your attitudes and behaviour so that you don't retransgress.
    Christ once said that when one sins one has a tendency to become a slave of such sin and that through him we can have the power to overcome such entaglements.
  12. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10087
    12 Feb '10 12:40
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    What would be an even greater contribution to modern thinking would be the realization that 'payment for sins' is not justice, nor does any form of payment either by the perpetrator or as FreakyKBH suggests by a third party, make the sin 'go away' or become 'right'.
    If you commit murder, the act is irreversible. At some point we need to accept that that ...[text shortened]... tisfactory explanation (other than 'its tradition'😉 for the concept of payment for sins.
    I look at it this way, there is a spiritual law that says once a sin is committed, death is the end result. I think Christ taking my place is just a loop hole in this law.
  13. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    12 Feb '10 12:53
    Originally posted by whodey
    I look at it this way, there is a spiritual law that says once a sin is committed, death is the end result. I think Christ taking my place is just a loop hole in this law.
    So is it some spiritual law that you found out about (through the Bible or some other means) or is it a spiritual law that is a logical outcome of the universe or something?
    Why do Theists so often talk about the necessity of paying for sins etc as if it is a self evident fact when in reality it isn't self evident at all?
  14. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10087
    12 Feb '10 13:272 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    So is it some spiritual law that you found out about (through the Bible or some other means) or is it a spiritual law that is a logical outcome of the universe or something?
    Why do Theists so often talk about the necessity of paying for sins etc as if it is a self evident fact when in reality it isn't self evident at all?
    I think that the spiritual law that I am speaking of is that sins brings death. In relation to scritpure and the real world, this makes sense. From a scriptural view, God is holy and without sin and abhors sin. Therefore, when someone sins he must cut himself from that person. In addition, since God is the source of life, this has obvious consequences. From a worldy perspective, we see people committing various "sins" such as rape, murder, theft etc,. So tell me, what are the outcomes for people who committ such "sins"? It seems to me that they have a higher propensity to meet their maker a lot sooner than say a law abiding citizen for obvious reasons.
  15. Territories Unknown
    Joined
    05 Dec '05
    Moves
    20408
    12 Feb '10 16:02
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    As far as I know, the point of repentance is to transform your attitudes and behaviour so that you don't retransgress.
    'Repent' simply means a change of mind. In the case of salvation, it is to change one's mind about the Messiah--- most especially, our response toward the work done by the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross: will we stand before God on the basis of our own goodness, or will we exchange our righteousness for His?
Back to Top