1. Graceland.
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    28 Mar '05 17:191 edit
    If you believe in God, do you also believe in Demons ?


    A question to those that believe in God. What happened to those Demon's Jesus excorsized, did they dissapear ?

    If we believe in God, angels and demons, do we believe angels walk amongst us ? What is the role of demons ? With exception to a few evangelical churches, I don't think I've come across a church that actively addresses the possibility of demon posession in our lives. Is this "too" 'Easter Bunny", or a reality we simply do not address ?

    I open th3 floor.
  2. Standard memberWulebgr
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    28 Mar '05 17:36
    Originally posted by pcaspian
    [b]If you believe in God, do you also believe in Demons ?


    A question to those that believe in God. What happened to those Demon's Jesus excorsized, did they dissapear ?

    If we believe in God, angels and demons, do we believe angels walk amongst us ? What is the role of demons ? With exception to a few evangelical churches, I don't think I've ...[text shortened]... Is this "too" 'Easter Bunny", or a reality we simply do not address ?

    I open th3 floor.[/b]
    I once went to a church where one of the ministers engaged in exorcisms on a fairly regular basis. I sat through a few of these.

    Demons are an important element in Western Christianity because most Western Christians require fear to motivate beliefs. Belief in demons is part of the European barbarian past; the Church labelled as demonic all those beliefs that inspired folks to attempt to live in harmony with the earth and natural processes. The true meaning of easter, for example, was celebration of the renewal of the earth. After Christians got hold of it, and imposed the central myth of Christianity on this world-renewal celebration, perverse notions about bunnies leaving eggs developed.
  3. Graceland.
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    28 Mar '05 18:301 edit
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    Demons are an important element in Western Christianity because most Western Christians require fear to motivate beliefs. Belief in demons is part of the European barbarian past; the Church labelled as demonic all those beliefs that inspired folks to attempt to live in harmony with the earth and natural processes. The true meaning of easter, for example, was celebration of the renewal of the earth. After Christians got hold of it, and imposed the central myth of Christianity on this world-renewal celebration, perverse notions about bunnies leaving eggs developed.

    I am asking for whether you
    1. Believe in God
    2. Believe in demons as actual entities.

    If you have no belief for God, I don't expect you to believe in demons. As such, all I basically want to know is the belief of Christians (or those that believe in God) and their subsequent belief in the effects of demons in this world.

    cheers
  4. Standard memberDarfius
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    28 Mar '05 21:34

    If you believe in God, do you also believe in Demons ?

    Yes. Though demons are NOT the same as fallen angels.

    A question to those that believe in God. What happened to those Demon's Jesus excorsized, did they dissapear ?

    No, they roam the spirit world looking for a way back into bodies. Some find them.

    If we believe in God, angels and demons, do we believe angels walk amongst us ?

    All Christians have at least one angel on 'guard duty', hence the term 'Guardian angel'. Do we usually see them? No. The Bible tells us they are there, however. As far as fallen angels...all angels can take material form when it suits them.

    What is the role of demons ?

    Demons are the disembodied spirits of the union between fallen angels and human women. They often possess the spiritually unguarded. Angels can also possess, but usually do not need to because of their ability to have material bodies.

    h exception to a few evangelical churches, I don't think I've come across a church that actively addresses the possibility of demon posession in our lives. Is this "too" 'Easter Bunny", or a reality we simply do not address ?

    The latter. Most churches nowadays are a part of the 'Great Apostasy' described by Paul as a time when 'Christians' would entertain false doctrines because it was more fun to hear than the Truth. This includes the Catholic Church's stance that 'Islam is a part of the salvation plan', total lack of preparation against demons in Protestant churches, the New Age material entering churches--repetition/chanting in 'worship' songs--, preaching only about the good of God and not the justice which includes judging sinners (even Christians). Paul warned this would be a sign of the last days.




    I want to expound on the difference between demons and fallen angels. First, let's look at Genesis chapter 6:

    6:1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 6:2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 6:3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 6:4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

    Note : in the OT, sons of God always referred to angels. The Hebrew word for giant is Nephilim, the name for the product of this union. Giants were seen by the scouts of Joshua and they said "we are as grasshoppers compared to them." Probably the most famous giant was Goliath, whom David killed.

    Because their fathers were evil, the men born of these unions were evil as well, and as we see, eventually all humans were tainted by this evil except Noah. The purpose of this breeding was probably not entirely for lust, but a method of Satan's to taint all of the blood lines so that the Messiah couldn't be born. So the Flood, which at first seems cruel, makes more sense in this light. But the

    6:5And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6:6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 6:7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 6:8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

    6:9These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. 6:10And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. 6:11The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 6:12And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. 6:13And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

    Notice that in 6:4 above, it says "and also after that". After what? Obviously after the Flood. This explains how even after everyone was destroyed in the Flood, there were still giants in the Promised Land when the Israelites reached it, and Goliath, etc. The point after the flood--since Satan realized that he couldn't taint all of mankind, was to keep the Israelites from the Promised Land and to attempt to wipe out the Israelites since from them the Messiah would come.

    Quick aside--In the 2nd epistle of Peter we learn:

    2:4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2:5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

    The fallen angels who had 'sinned' (mated with human women) were in chains in Tarturus (Peter used the Greek hell, probably the story of the Titans had some truth to it) awaiting judgement.

    In Greek mythology, the Titans were a family of giant gods who were the offspring of Uranus (heaven) and Gaea (earth). The most famous of the Titans was Cronus, who killed his father. Cronus later led the Titans in their losing war against Zeus and the Olympian gods. After their defeat, the Titans were imprisoned in a section of the underworld called Tartarus.

    Why would Peter speak of Tarturus and the days of Noah unless he was trying to reiterate that gianst lived in those days?

    There are legends of giants in many, many cultures. Giants would explain how the fantasically huge rocks were moved in many ancient monuments. Advanced technology from fallen angels (elaborated about in the Book of Enoch, which Jude quotes from in his book) would have helped the Egyptians--who had no number '0'--build their pyramids so precisely. Modern day scientists are still baffled how ancient civilizations moved the enormous stones such vast distances to such heights. Modern day cranes couldn't lift some of the rocks, including a 200,000 pound stone in South America.

    The Bible described Goliath as being the equivalent of 12 feet tall. The tallest man in the Guinness book of world records was 8 feet, 11 inches tall.

    Now, 'demons' come from about when the Nephilim--giants-- die. Since they have corrupted spirits, they are not welcome in Heaven or Hell, but are doomed to wander the earth. When men allow them, they possess people. These are the 'demons' cast out by Jesus. Remember, if the demons were just fallen angels, the fallen angels wouldn't need a body to leap into, but would simply materialize on their own when they wished.

    Many civilizations also have records of UFO's. Ranging from 'shining silver disks to burning chariots', they had strange men come from them and trade technology, sometimes for women, and they were worshipped as gods.

    What kind of technology would fall angels who could be millions of billions years older than humans possess? Perhaps enough to make the ships people claim to see nearly every day? The ships that far surpass anything even the most powerful governments can dream of?

    It is interesting to note that the UFO phenomon began in 1947, with Kenneth Arnold. Why is this interesting? Because Israel became a nation again a scant year later in 1948. Not following? I'll refer you to the Olivet Discourse, the sermon given by Jesus to the disciples explaining when the last days would be. He gives a parable of a fig tree--something Israel is referred to all throughout the Bible--and that when it blooms, you know summer is near, so likewise, when Christians saw the times of the end start happening, we know Christ's 2nd coming is near. Israel 'bloomed' or was reborn in 1948, and that is also when the signs of the end started increasing in frequency, including earthquakes, pestilence, wars, rumors of wars, and people claiming to be Jesus Christ.

    Before Jesus returns, there will be a period of 7 years when God judges the world. Jesus warned that the last days would be "as in the days of Noah". As usual with the Lord, His words had more than a single meaning and even more than a double meaning. On the surface, it means men in the end times would be as evil as the time as Noah. It also means God will save the righteous from judgement in what is called the "Rapture" (see Corinthians 15:51-55). It also means that fallen angels will again interfere with man in an attempt to thwart God's plans.

    Since the Rapture entails the 'calling up' of Christians to Heaven before the Tribulation (period of judgement upon the world and ungodly), it will be very difficult for unbelievers to maintain that God isn't real. That is, unless Satan, the ultimate deceiver can perpetrate another lie to 'explain it away'. Many Christians believe it will be explained away as 'mass alien abductions'.

    This is already being prepared in the New Age movement. The New Agers believe man is ready to 'evolve' to their next highest form and that Christians are holding man back with 'backwards thought'. Some New Agers claim to be mediums for aliens who have come to help man evolve and that the plan is one day 'all those who are preventing man's evolution and preventing peace' will be taken out of the world. These people are really medium for demons.

    God Himself says that He will send 'strong delusion' in the last days to those who didn't heed His Word. This likely means He will allow Satan to spread this lie so that people who didn't heed the witness of Christians before will still cling to lies to escape the Truth of God.

    Is
  5. Standard memberDarfius
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    28 Mar '05 21:35
    Is it simply coincidence that the UFO crazy began in 1947? Or did Satan know about Israel's impending rebirth by listening in on UN meetings? Satan is brilliant. He knew what that would mean. What better way to deceive people than by saying aliens 'seeded earth' and that 'Christians need to be removed'? Is Jesus needed in that scenario? Of course not, and Satan laughed with glee when he first thought of the plan.

    There is a disturbing similarity of the stories of those who claim to have been abducted. They all claim that sexual experiments were performed on them. Men have had sperm removed and women have actually been raped or implanted with seed, and at subsequent abuductions have had something removed. One woman said that while she lied on the table paralyzed, a female 'alien' held out a baby she had removed from the woman to the woman and then snatched it back saying "Your baby is ours now."

    And all of the aliens are described as 'short, green with huge black eyes'. But there is also sometimes a tall, sort of grey being who is the most terrifying. Could this be one of the fallen angels, and could the small 'aliens' really be biologically enginered bodies for the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim?

    These abductions could be serving a double or triple purpose. First, to make UFO's seem reality for mankind. Secondly, to breed an army of 'giants' to fulfill some of the judgements of the Tribulation, and thirdly to attempt to breed the Antichrist himself (perhaps a Nephilim bred to look human, but with superhuman abilities--charm, strength, intelligence--).

    At first it may seem far-fetched, but Goliath WAS 12 feet tall, and there were a race of giants like him. Fallen angels DID mate with humans (this was the predominate belief during the time of Jesus, as written by Josephus, Martry, and the Nicene councilmen). UFO sightings DID begin at the same time Israel became a nation again, officially heralding in the end times.
  6. Standard membertelerion
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    28 Mar '05 21:45
    Well, I no longer believe in God, but when I did, I also believed in demons. Basically, it was like something out of a Frank E. Peretti novel. Angels and demons doing battle. The saints prayers invigorating the troops (ala Daniel). We believed in demon possession and demon oppression, a milder condition. I did attend at least two exorcisms that I can remember, though I was never an active participant (I was about 10 years old at one of them.) My mother is still very much into this sort of superstition. I think it is quite common among the more charismatically-inclined protestant churches.
  7. Standard membertelerion
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    28 Mar '05 21:52
    Originally posted by Darfius
    Is it simply coincidence that the UFO crazy began in 1947? Or did Satan know about Israel's impending rebirth by listening in on UN meetings? Satan is brilliant. He knew what that would mean. What better way to deceive people than by saying aliens 'seeded earth' and that 'Christians need to be removed'? Is Jesus needed in that scenario? Of course ...[text shortened]... ID begin at the same time Israel became a nation again, officially heralding in the end times.
    Speaking of the Easter Bunny . . .
  8. Standard memberDarfius
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    28 Mar '05 21:52
    I also wanted to add this from the Apostle John's prophecy of the last days in Revelations:

    16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

    Why would he say like frogs? I urge you to look at this site (The Grays)

    http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/3294/rogue.html

    Now out of all the animals John could have compared them to, I would wager frogs was the best pick...
  9. Standard memberWulebgr
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    28 Mar '05 22:08
    Originally posted by pcaspian

    I am asking for whether you
    1. Believe in God
    2. Believe in demons as actual entities.

    If you have no belief for God, I don't expect you to believe in demons. As such, all I basically want to know is the belief of Christians (or those that believe in God) and their subsequent belief in the effects of demons in this world.

    cheers
    I cannot answer straight those questions that assume in their structure certain illusions.

    First, not all who believe in g-d are Christian. Second, your question assumed the accuracy of a mythic text the preconditions for which you pretend to inquire regarding.

    I made clear from my reply that I once communed with those for whom belief in demons and Christian faith were not only beliefs, but beliefs that induced certain actions. I, then, sought to historicize these beliefs.

    Individual beliefs always exist in a social context. Your question attempts to conceal its agenda.
  10. Graceland.
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    28 Mar '05 22:19
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    I cannot answer straight those questions that assume in their structure certain illusions.

    First, not all who believe in g-d are Christian. Second, your question assumed the accuracy of a mythic text the preconditions for which you pretend to inquire regarding.



    I don't particularly care whether you consider the text mythical. What I do find interesting is the question over whether Christians that believe the Biblical scriptures, assume demons to play an active role in our every day lives.

    Individual beliefs always exist in a social context. Your question attempts to conceal its agenda.

    The belief in Demon's is not isolated. Jesus excorsized demons 2 000 years ago. Today the notion, even amongst most Christians churches, of an exorsizm is rather unheard of and quite frankly odd. As such I am curious whether any Christians, or believers in God that also believe in Demons, believe they have an active role in our every day society.
  11. Standard memberOmnislash
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    28 Mar '05 22:231 edit
    Interestingly enough, I have been doing research on this sort of thing lately (sparked by another thread about a week ago). I had hoped to open a thread much like this with my finding. Sadly though, I must report that I have had great difficult finding credibile sources, and as such can do little more than offer my own speculations.

    That said, I am a theist. I believe in the entities called demons. Beyond that, I have only personal hypothesis.
  12. Graceland.
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    28 Mar '05 22:26
    Originally posted by telerion
    Well, I no longer believe in God, but when I did, I also believed in demons. Basically, it was like something out of a Frank E. Peretti novel. Angels and demons doing battle. The saints prayers invigorating the troops (ala Daniel). We believed in demon possession and demon oppression, a milder condition. I did attend at least two exorcisms that I can remember, though I was never an active participant (I was about 10 years old at one of them.) My mother is still very much into this sort of superstition. I think it is quite common among the more charismatically-inclined protestant churches.

    Wow, must have been pretty heavy stuff to be exposed to an exorcism at such a young age. I have yet to read any Peretti books, but a friend recommended one of his books earlier today (I watched "Constantine" today). I recall an incident with a woman I tried to help a few years ago. She was scroungin in the bins outside a KFC for some food. I bought her 2 pieces of chicken and offered it to her, but she verbally attacked me when I did this. It was simply put the most unusual event of my life. I recall telling this to another person (very devout Christian) and she told me what one day she had walked past this woman, feeling eary , and this woman made a comment about her 'not being from the same side' , or something to that extend. Simply put, what I am trying to understand is whether that came across as a demon possessed person 2 000 years ago , is today considered a mental patient or epileptic ?

    Could you tell me more about those exorsisms you witnessed ?
  13. Standard membertelerion
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    29 Mar '05 00:27
    Yeah, both of them occured in a cabin outside of Spokane. The cabin was owned by some sort of ministry that worked with the people who had been living on the streets. It was a popular conception among the types of xtians that participated in this ministry that these people are most often affected by demons because of the Satanic stranglehold on their environment. Although I naturally no longer give any regard to this view, it would not surprise me if the individuals being "helped" by this ministry did suffer from some severe personality disorders or at least intense emotional trauma.

    From what I recollect of the event (The two encounters were very similar, and so I will refer to them in the singular.) A group of believers would spend the week before the event in intense communion with God (since they were xtian). This generally included fasting, the idea being that you should be moving more in the spiritual realm than the physical. Then at night they met with the person (I'm not sure if anything else occured before this.) I don't remember how it started, although from what I've heard from my mother they would begin by singing. This seems plausible because what I do remember clearly were these people praying vigorously and speaking in tongues, practices that usually followed worship. They also did something that they called "travailing" or "weeping in the Spirit" which was actually one of the scarier practices. Basically, they started crying and wailing loudly. Apparently this is some method of interceding on behalf of the demon-possessed person.

    They would lay hands on the victim and try speaking to the demon. From what I gather this was some sort of "know thy enemy" identification procedure. Going through a long list of "demons" (e.g. demon of lust, demon of prostitution, demon of heroine, etc.), they would await some intense response from the victim, signaling that the demon had been ID'd. Mostly I just remember the shouting and travailing.

    From there I have no memory of what occured. From what I've been told from my mother and others involved in these sorts of ceremonies, the individual may start cursing or groaning or crying. They may try to flee or strike out. These are all indications that the demon is agitated. They would either continue with prayer and such as well as quoting scriptures. Apparently, at some point they either believe the demon has been cast out or they decide that the demon isn't coming out and will require more effort later. I believe these things can last quite a while (all night), so that the reason for my lack of memory as to the conclusion may have been that I was sent to bed. (Sweet dreams! 🙂 )

    Really I wasn't involved in enough exorcisms to say much more. I have no idea how "effective" these encounters were in changing the behavior of the victim. My hunch is that they scared "the devil" out of a few people with serious mental illnesses. Consider a mental case with many tragic, repressed experiences surrounded by extremely aggressive and accusatory people babbling in weird speech and addressing the victim as a demon. They bring up all sorts of horrible things, some of which have real personal connections to the victim; and they won't let the victim leave.

    It must be terrifying, and if the person has underlying mental instabilities, then this process likely leads to violent outburts, which only encourage exocisers to redouble their efforts.
  14. Graceland.
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    29 Mar '05 00:40
    Originally posted by telerion
    Yeah, both of them occured in a cabin outside of Spokane. The cabin was owned by some sort of ministry that worked with the people who had been living on the streets. It was a popular conception among the types of xtians that participated in this ministry that these people are most often affected by demons because of the Satanic stranglehold on their environment. Although I naturally no longer give any regard to this view, it would not surprise me if the individuals being "helped" by this ministry did suffer from some severe personality disorders or at least intense emotional trauma.


    Thanks for your time taking to recall and write the event. May I ask one more question however. As you don't believe in God that would imply that you clearly do not believe these people are demon possessed. I would assume that after such a session with a 'patient' that the patient is not actually cured (needless to say). Based on this assumption, did your mother ( or anyone else for that matter) not find it odd that it never worked ? i.e. The fact that no-one recovered ? I would assume that a session where a mental patient was healed could be deemed a miracle (which would most likely cause you to believe in God), so were there no cases of anything like this happening ?

    thanks

    pc
  15. Standard membertelerion
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    29 Mar '05 00:531 edit
    My mother has mentioned that often the people that have been exorcised choose to go back into their Satanic environment and thus likely end up being demon possessed again.

    I'm pretty sure my mother never approached exorcisms with an outlook that allowed for exorcisms to be fake or useless. She was fully convinced that they worked. She needed no confirmation.

    That said I should clarify. I don't think my mother engages in these any longer. I have indication that she has lost faith in them. It is possible though. Since then she has completed a bachelors in Psychology and started a masters. Maybe her views have changed a bit. I'll have to ask her sometime.
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