Originally posted by SuzianneI don't see why a morally sound person would want another person to take responsibility for, or absolve them of, the guilt or consequences stemming from their immoral deeds. And this abdication of moral responsibility allows one ~ or makes one eligible ~ to be rewarded for eternity? In terms of mythology/superstition, it sounds completely far-fetched, and in terms of morality, it doesn't make any sense.
That is why we all need a Savior, whose innocence enabled him to be our intermediary and to take on the sins of the world in our place and enable us to enter the Kingdom of God.
-Removed-The OP, with its "Sins aside..." opener sought to set "sin" aside in this particular thread as "sin" gets discussed a lot. I am all for religious people discussing "sin" and even conflating it with "morality" if they choose, but with this thread I was interested in thoughts not based on the conflation of the two.
Originally posted by Suziannejosephw asked "If the deed is immoral why not the thought?". Someone who's never been tempted has never been tested. What matters is what we do not what we think. Provided they never become external there's not a problem.
Could you be even a little more specific? This question is so vague as to have any number of answers.
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeI agree that our thoughts can come at random. Unbidden thoughts. Oddly enough though I cannot find where it says we will be judged, by the God of the Bible, for our thoughts, except perhaps where Jesus said that if we look upon a woman with lust we have committed adultery in our heart. Thoughts matter.
I think, as humans, we have more control of our actions then we do our thoughts.
If i tell you 'don't think about tomatoes', chances are you will think about tomatoes. If i tell not to poke the cat with a stick, you will hopefully be more able to prevent yourself from doing so.
I have a client who feels constantly guilty for the dark thoughts ...[text shortened]... by a thought; but not every thought leads to a deed. If it did, we would all be in trouble. ;o)
I think we are not exempt from accountability for our thoughts even though we may not act upon them. I think right living begins with right thinking. No one is perfect. Or else why do we need a saviour?
Anything can be forgiven! Even our stray thoughts that lead us away from the righteousness of God.
-Removed-Maybe "thinking" is too broad a word here?
Maybe Jesus was talking about "planning"?
That thought process we go through before acting?
I can understand that counselling people not to "deliberately"
think immoral thoughts a good idea. In fact I have discussed
with friends the concept of making possibilities - (I contend that
one has to make adultery a possibility before it happens.)
However - day-dreaming/fantasising about sex with the neighbour
is surely different. Do not we all fantasise about things we could not,
would not ever do?
Originally posted by FMF""Sins" aside ~ by which I mean acts that are regarded by theologians and religious people as transgressions of God's will ~ the notion of "immoral thoughts" is a misnomer."
Well I've laid out my argument in the OP ~ and thus answered your two questions above ~ so feel free to argue the opposite if you want.
What a convoluted statement! How do you jump from "acts" of "sins" to the "notion" that "immoral thoughts" are a misnomer? The whole statement is irrational. You cannot separate any "act" from its precedent "thought", and thoughts that involve a corresponding act regarded as immoral are in and of themselves immoral, regardless of what any so-called theologian or religious person may say about what is or isn't a sinful act.
""Morality" is a code that governs human interaction ~ and thoughts that do not lead to immoral deeds cannot be deemed as being immoral. Your take on this?"
"Thoughts that do not lead to immoral deeds cannot be deemed as being immoral"? That's just a no-brainer! We have thousands of thoughts everyday about the things we do that have nothing to do with moral conduct whatsoever! What are you trying to pull over our eyes with this line of convoluted and irrational nonsense?
Your OP answered nothing.
Originally posted by wolfgang59A thought that has as it's object an act that is defined as immoral, whether bidden or not, remains an "immoral thought".
So you must surely agree that having such "unbidden" thoughts
cannot be considered immoral - regardless of how depraved those thoughts might be.
?
No mortal is immune to them. All are guilty. Except Jesus.
Originally posted by DeepThoughtI agree that when one acts upon an immoral thought is when one is guilty of an immoral act, but then the question arises, are we moral when our thoughts are not?
See three posts above. Thinking pure thoughts isn't what makes one moral, it's not acting on the bad ones that counts.
How can we separate out our thought life from our whole being?
Originally posted by josephwYou cannot separate any "act" from its precedent "thought", and thoughts that involve a corresponding act regarded as immoral are in and of themselves immoral, regardless of what any so-called theologian or religious person may say about what is or isn't a sinful act.
Well, the OP is explicitly not talking about "sin". If a thought about an immoral act does not damage anyone, does not deceive anyone, and does not coerce anyone ~ in other words, it does not have an adverse impact on anyone else, the kind of impacts morality serves to prevent ~ how can it be deemed to be immoral?
Originally posted by josephwWe have thousands of thoughts everyday about the things we do that have nothing to do with moral conduct whatsoever! What are you trying to pull over our eyes with this line of convoluted and irrational nonsense?
The notion of "sin" aside, morality is surely a code that governs the acceptability and unacceptability of interactions between people ~ in other words deeds and conduct. That we have thousands of thoughts everyday about the things that have nothing whatsoever to do with moral conduct is not in dispute; I'm not sure what makes you think it is.