1. Joined
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    14 Jul '07 11:22
    First of all I´d like to say that I am raised a Christian. But I am not. I don´t say that they are wrong either.

    I don´t know in which way the bible is true. It can be read in many different ways so there are different thruths. Some views can be combined, but simply not all views can be true.

    I also don´t know if we still live after we die. I just hope so. However on this topic there is a Christian who has a bunch of claims which I think cannot mix and therefor I say it´s not possible. Here they are.

    1) God himself is 100% love, 100% perfect and 100% fair
    2) God will forgive `ANY` sin as long as you embrace him. (She means that you´ll have to say and feel that is absoluty certain that he excist and is good and pure, etc)
    3) You will NEVER go to heaven if you don´t fully embrace him. No matter what you do or how you live.

    Now if 2 and 3 are true then I dare to say that 1 is nonsense.
    If 1 is true then I think 2 is strange and 3 is impossible.

    3 Means that if you are pure of hearth lived a good live, etc etc but you just had a little small amount of doubt about Christianity (even if you are a Christian) then you´re doomed.

    I wandered if there are any here that agree on the statements 1-3. If you do, would you be so kind to explain your view.
  2. Standard memberRajk999
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    14 Jul '07 12:27
    Originally posted by metbierop
    .........I also don´t know if we still live after we die. I just hope so. .
    You hope so ? Why?
    You want salvation but dont want to believe or do anything to get it ?

    Boy Oh Boy ... another freeloader !!!
  3. Joined
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    14 Jul '07 12:43
    Originally posted by metbierop
    1) God himself is 100% love, 100% perfect and 100% fair
    2) God will forgive `ANY` sin as long as you embrace him. (She means that you´ll have to say and feel that is absoluty certain that he excist and is good and pure, etc)
    3) You will NEVER go to heaven if you don´t fully embrace him. No matter what you do or how you live.
    I think this is the exact same outline presented to Adam and Eve in the garden before the fall.
  4. Joined
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    14 Jul '07 13:01
    Originally posted by whodey
    I think this is the exact same outline presented to Adam and Eve in the garden before the fall.
    Nope most certainly not.

    If you take the story litterly, they didn´t doubt God being himself at all. They just did not listen to him.
  5. Joined
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    14 Jul '07 13:08
    Originally posted by metbierop
    Nope most certainly not.

    If you take the story litterly, they didn´t doubt God being himself at all. They just did not listen to him.
    But they did doubt God. What is the difference between doubting his word that his existence is true or not and/or doubting whether or not what he said about partaking of the fruit is true or not. Either way, you are doubting his word. This is why faith is important. There will ALWAYS be times when we don't see the big picture. We then have the option of doing our own thing or trusting in the one who we believe does have the big pircture. Whether God proves himself to you or not, you will continue to have the need for placing your faith in God. If not then proceed at your own peril without him. However, be a man and partake of the fruits of the choice you have made. If you exclude God from your life, is it not hypocritical to expect him to bail you out when you feel as though you need his help? For example, if you don't need him for your salvation, then save yourself.
  6. Joined
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    14 Jul '07 13:16
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    You hope so ? Why?
    You want salvation but dont want to believe or do anything to get it ?

    Boy Oh Boy ... another freeloader !!!
    You could not be more wrong. I´ll explain.

    1: You hope so ?
    Yes

    2:Why?
    Is this truly so hard to imagine?
    I´ll give you a hint it is the same reasoning, why I wanna live and don´t kill myself at this very moment.

    3: You want salvation
    If you ment, If I wanna keep living after I die. Yes
    If you ment something else please explain what you ment with salvation.

    4: but dont want to believe
    I´ve got no problem WANTING to believe I´m just not convinced. Should I lie?

    5: or do anything to get it
    I´ve you read my post you might come to the conclusion that I´m willing to do the right thing (Good hearted, etc)

    6: Boy Oh Boy ... another freeloader !!!
    Being honest ain´t being a freeloader. Just imagine (please try) that there is an afterlife but your thoughts were wrong. Then you don´t want it?

    Besides that I´m willing to live a good life and being good hearted without a certainty of being rewarded for it afterwards.
    Your remark is quite misplaced.

    Offcourse you may criticize me. But be so Kind to at least reply at my question. You are only shouting some stuff. Who is freeloading here?
  7. Joined
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    14 Jul '07 13:31
    Originally posted by whodey
    But they did doubt God. What is the difference between doubting his word that his existence is true or not and/or doubting whether or not what he said about partaking of the fruit is true or not. Either way, you are doubting his word. This is why faith is important. There will ALWAYS be times when we don't see the big picture. We then have the option of ...[text shortened]... you need his help? For example, if you don't need him for your salvation, then save yourself.
    True they did doubt his word.

    There really is a difference. This my sound strange to you but I don´t doubt the Christians teaching. I live to Gods word much more then many Christians I know. Therefore I don´t think I have excluded him from my life.

    Do you really think I have completely forsaken God, by just thinking `I don´t know what will happen`

    It really is not strange for me not knowing. Neither is it for the people who never RECEIVED the teachings.

    Why do I have to be bailed out? Why are you putting me in jail? Like I said, I live by his teachings. I don´t take the apple.

    To get back to your question, No I don´t think it is hypocritical. I think it is hypocritical to mess up your life and expect God to save you just because you ´know´ he excist. `Nevermind all the apples´

    By the way . Do you notice that by saying (For example, if you don't need him for your salvation, then save yourself) you are speaking for God now?

    This truly is not wright.
  8. Joined
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    14 Jul '07 13:53
    Originally posted by metbierop
    True they did doubt his word.

    By the way . Do you notice that by saying (For example, if you don't need him for your salvation, then save yourself) you are speaking for God now?

    This truly is not wright.
    It is only common sense. God is the source of all life, so if you walk away from him what are you embracing? Is it not death? Sin is simply walking away from what God has preordained for us and is what is best for us.

    Whether or not you believe what I am telling you one thing is for certain. You are 100% dependent on God for your salvation if he, in fact, does exist. If this is true, why not begin asking him what is required of you if anything? Why ask me? Why ask yourself? Neither of us is in a position to demand anything from God. Therefore, if you believe Christ was God in the flesh then follow him. If not, follow who you believe to be God. The only other option is to do your own thing. However, if you do your own thing then you become your own god just as the serpant told Adam and Eve in the garden when he said, "You will be as gods".
  9. Joined
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    14 Jul '07 14:26
    Originally posted by whodey
    It is only common sense. God is the source of all life, so if you walk away from him what are you embracing? Is it not death? Sin is simply walking away from what God has preordained for us and is what is best for us.

    Whether or not you believe what I am telling you one thing is for certain. You are 100% dependent on God for your salvation if he, in fa ...[text shortened]... n god just as the serpant told Adam and Eve in the garden when he said, "You will be as gods".
    Owkay, here we go.

    1) It is only common sense.
    - It is YOUR common sense. It are your personal thoughts. Don´t ever forget that.

    2) God is the source of all life, so if you walk away from him what are you embracing? Is it not death?
    - I asked this before. Why do you say I am walking away. I responded that I disagree with that. Answer my question or stop claiming it.

    3) Sin is simply walking away from what God has preordained for us and is what is best for us.
    -`What God has preordained for us` is to global. I cannot agree or disagree.

    4) Whether or not you believe what I am telling you one thing is for certain. You are 100% dependent on God for your salvation if he, in fact, does exist.
    - I agree

    5) If this is true, why not begin asking him what is required of you if anything?
    I´m willing to. But how do I do that?

    6) Why ask me?
    Because you answer and I am interested in your thoughts.

    7) Why ask yourself?
    Because I am bothered

    8) Neither of us is in a position to demand anything from God.
    Again I agree. Please note I never did.

    9) Therefore, if you believe Christ was God in the flesh then follow him.
    Why? I truly don´t understand why believing in the teachings ain´t enough.

    10) If not, follow who you believe to be God.
    Please understand. I don´t know.

    11) The only other option is to do your own thing. However, if you do your own thing then you become your own god just as the serpant told Adam and Eve in the garden when he said, "You will be as gods"

    I am following the teachings of Christianity. I disregard becoming my own God as crap. Try to consider that I might be a good person. I am not the anti-Christ.

    If you respond to this please DO respond to my questions. You have not really done that so far. I´dd like to have a dialogue. At the moment it feels to me that I am just responding to you.
  10. Joined
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    14 Jul '07 14:432 edits
    The only point I'd like to add something to is the "God is fair" claim. It is a bit clearer to say "God is just". But how can he be just if he forgives anyone their sin, even murders, rapists, and torturers etc? Surely that is the definition of unjust.

    And this is the crux of the matter: God's justice was carried out on the cross. Jesus took the justice for our sin. It's always amazed me that theologians over the years have struggled with who God paid on the cross with Jesus' death (the Bible uses the language that Jesus paid for us with his death). Of course he paid himself - he satisfied both his justice and his love.

    Notice it's his justice that was satisfied, not yours or mine. It is patently unjust that Jesus paid for my sin (or a murderer's or a rapist's), and I get away without penalty. It is the most outrageously, heartbreaking injustice in the history of creation. But if God wanted to win me back to himself, he had to do it, because I don't have the resources to pay. If I pay even a bit, I must pay all. The balance on my side is that I must accept his payment, by accepting him, on His terms, not mine. That is the only true choice.

    And that is why what Jesus did on the cross is so amazing, and why Christians keep harping on about it. If you want God's forgiveness, you have to go through Jesus because he is the one who paid for it (and the only one who could have).

    P.S. God "paying himself" to satisfy his own sense of justice is not as strange as it sounds at first. Anyone who has been cheated, or burned, or disenfranchised in some way will understand the need for justice - even at the expense of other things we value. And that is just within a human framework. To a holy God, the dissonance of injustice would be ... well, infinite.
  11. Solaris
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    14 Jul '07 15:02
    Originally posted by metbierop
    First of all I´d like to say that I am raised a Christian. But I am not. I don´t say that they are wrong either.

    I don´t know in which way the bible is true. It can be read in many different ways so there are different thruths. Some views can be combined, but simply not all views can be true.

    I also don´t know if we still live after we die. I ju ...[text shortened]... any here that agree on the statements 1-3. If you do, would you be so kind to explain your view.
    The 3rd point was not stated by any of the greatest religions(of course, fanatics and dumbs exluded). The 2 is logically ok,after you assume that there is a punishment for one's sins, depending on the weight of the fault, before you're salvated.
  12. Joined
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    14 Jul '07 15:15
    Originally posted by t0lkien
    The only point I'd like to add something to is the "God is fair" claim. It is a bit clearer to say "God is just". But how can he be just if he forgives anyone their sin, even murders, rapists, and torturers etc? Surely that is the definition of unjust.

    And this is the crux of the matter: God's justice was carried out on the cross. Jesus took the justice f ...[text shortened]... ramework. To a holy God, the dissonance of injustice would be ... well, infinite.
    Thanks for your answer.

    All seems logical and ´fair´ what you are saying.

    If Jesus by his suffering paid the price of our sins.
    MIGHT it be possible that thanks to the suffering of Jesus we are forgiven the sin of ´not knowing´ ?
  13. Joined
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    14 Jul '07 15:19
    Originally posted by Choreant
    The 3rd point was not stated by any of the greatest religions(of course, fanatics and dumbs exluded). The 2 is logically ok,after you assume that there is a punishment for one's sins, depending on the weight of the fault, before you're salvated.
    That sounds great!

    Are you certain that the 3rd point is not stated by Christianity?
    I agree that 1 and 2 perfectly go together without 3.
  14. Gangster Land
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    14 Jul '07 15:42
    Originally posted by whodey
    But they did doubt God. What is the difference between doubting his word that his existence is true or not and/or doubting whether or not what he said about partaking of the fruit is true or not. Either way, you are doubting his word. This is why faith is important. There will ALWAYS be times when we don't see the big picture. We then have the option of ...[text shortened]... you need his help? For example, if you don't need him for your salvation, then save yourself.
    Something I posted in a different thread seems to fit here:

    Its not really a fair choice though, is it? We are supposed to follow the directions found in a collection of books written a couple thousand years ago, and never get any actual evidence that what we are "choosing" actually exists.

    You make it sound as if it is as simple as choosing door number one or door number two when in reality choosing God is like choosing the blank wall between the two doors.

    So, God sets up the rules for the so called "choice" to be with him or not, and makes choosing him horribly difficult due to lack of evidence, and THEN (and this is really the kicker) if we happen to get confused or just don't understand why anyone would head for the space between the doors (God)...he removes our ability to ever get another chance to choose him *forever*, and he does this without ever having sufficiently announced his presence in the first place!

    Geez...you can keep your god, he sounds like an evil Monty Hall, who incidentally, can't even seem to play by his own rules in the giant game of Let's Make Deal he created.
  15. Joined
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    14 Jul '07 17:07
    Originally posted by TheSkipper
    Something I posted in a different thread seems to fit here:

    Its not really a fair choice though, is it? We are supposed to follow the directions found in a collection of books written a couple thousand years ago, and never get any actual evidence that what we are "choosing" actually exists.

    You make it sound as if it is as simple as choosing door n ...[text shortened]... can't even seem to play by his own rules in the giant game of Let's Make Deal he created.
    Skipper, nothing is fair. Just look around. What is fair in the world?

    I am not attempting to understand things based upon what is fair, because nothing is, rather, I am attempting to understand the world as it is, thus I am trying to understand why the world is not fair. You can blame God all you want and say he is to blame, however, I would caution you that this may not be the case. For example, was it fair what they did to Christ, yet God allowed it to happen.

    I think the view that if there be a just God then life MUST be fair is at the root of many who reject him. If so, you will never accept him because the world is not fair and never will be until Christ returns. The bottom line is that we are at WAR!! The good news is that the bad guys are outgunned. The bad news is that deception thus becomes the tactic of choice in fighting the good guys and it seems to be very effective.

    I can't convince you of the truth, I can only attest to the truth of the teachings of Christ. If you do not see them for yourself then you will NEVER trust in him as the one who is the source of all truth.

    In terms of God proving he exists, he has already done that and it did not get him very far. What God wants is for us to place our faith in him. Proving himself has proven not to be the route for this to occur.
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