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This all reminds me of the stunt Glenn Beck pulled as he rallied a large group of people together in Washington DC on the premise that as a society we needed to seek God as the solution to our problems.
The response from those on the left were typical. Essentially the response was, but what will government do to help?
I think it was a rather brilliant idea. It demonstrated where we see our "collective salvation" comes from in terms of ideologies and beliefs as a society. For many on the left, I think that political ideology has replaced religious ideology.
I believe we all have a notion of "salvation" and a "devil". The devil may be corporations, or Wal Mart, or government, or an actual devil etc. We then fight that image with all our might and rally anything that we think opposes it.
Originally posted by whodeyI think you should consider taking your partisan U.S. retail politics stuff to the Debates Forum. The topic here is "individualism and the human spirit". John Ralston Saul's examination of "individualism" is not really a left-right thing. Nor is his analysis of "corporatism". I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about the OP. For instance, how does your personal conception of a spiritual dimension in your life affect your philosophy of individualism and how you see yourself relating to the society in which you live?
This all reminds me of the stunt Glenn Beck pulled as he rallied a large group of people together in Washington DC on the premise that as a society we needed to seek God as the solution to our problems.
The response from those on the left were typical. Essentially the response was, but what will government do to help?
I think it was a rather brilliant ...[text shortened]... society. For many on the left, I think that political ideology has replaced religious ideology.
Originally posted by whodey"Salvation" of what?
I believe we all have a notion of "salvation" and a "devil". The devil may be corporations, or Wal Mart, or government, or an actual devil etc. We then fight that image with all our might and rally anything that we think opposes it.
Originally posted by FMFWell those who don't believe in an after life are left with heaven and hell on earth. You hear political leaders in the US like Obama mention our "collective salvation" all the time. Naturally, it has nothing to do with our eternal salvation. Instead, it is a collectivist term in reference to the utopia they envision.
"Salvation" of what?
Originally posted by FMFPolitics and religion are similar in that they both promise utopia. Also, they both are a belief system and both rely on an ideology that is not provable.
I think you should consider taking your partisan U.S. retail politics stuff to the Debates Forum. The topic here is "individualism and the human spirit". John Ralston Saul's examination of "individualism" is not really a left-right thing. Nor is his analysis of "corporatism". I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about the OP. For instance, how does you ...[text shortened]... philosophy of individualism and how you see yourself relating to the society in which you live?
Islam makes no distinction between politics and religion. For them, it seems to be one in the same.
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Originally posted by whodeyA politician talking about "salvation" in a non religious way is clearly talking about problems that threaten society as a whole ~ which is why the word "collective" is there. What role does your "individualism" in harness with your Christian spiritual beliefs encourage you to play in finding solutions faced by society. What contribution do you feel you should make as an individual?
Well those who don't believe in an after life are left with heaven and hell on earth. You hear political leaders in the US like Obama mention our "collective salvation" all the time. Naturally, it has nothing to do with our eternal salvation. Instead, it is a collectivist term in reference to the utopia they envision.
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Originally posted by whodeyHow can your "individualism" and the unprovable beliefs you have in a spiritual "utopia" [as a result of your religiosity] together contribute to collective efforts to make life in the here and now less dystopian?
Politics and religion are similar in that they both promise utopia. Also, they both are a belief system and both rely on an ideology that is not provable. Islam makes no distinction between politics and religion. For them, it seems to be one in the same.
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Originally posted by FMFMy faith dictates that we are to be a "light" unto men and that our kingdom is not of this world. This is why Christ did not seek political power, even though Constantine hijacked the faith hundreds of years later.
How can your "individualism" and the unprovable beliefs you have in a spiritual "utopia" [as a result of your religiosity] together contribute to collective efforts to make life in the here and now less dystopian?
Instead, Christ sought to change the hearts of man rather than oppress and coerce men through political might. You can beat a slave into submission and have him do your bidding, but it is an entirely different matter breaking the chains of someone who is a slave to sin. The issue is human free will, and how that free will is abused, which gave rise to the power of collectivists to suppress "bad" behavior. The question is, how to quell such behavior. Jesus and the cookie cutter collectivist have two entirely different approaches in regards to the cure.
Christ offered a bottom up approach, not a top down approach we see with collectivists in the political realm. In addition, he offers us freedom and peace of mind rather than fear, oppression, and coercion to "do the right thing". As Jesus once said, my yoke is light, I bring you peace. This Jesus can offer to even those bound by the chains of a collectivist.
As for myself, having Jesus in my life has influenced me greatly. It has caused me not to seek my own will, but that of God. If you think I'm a hot mess now, you should have seen me before my conversion. 😲
Originally posted by FMFSince you don't know me, just look at the influence Jesus has had on the world since his arrival.
A politician talking about "salvation" in a non religious way is clearly talking about problems that threaten society as a whole ~ which is why the word "collective" is there. What role does your "individualism" in harness with your Christian spiritual beliefs encourage you to play in finding solutions faced by society. What contribution do you feel you should make as an individual?
Before Jesus came on the scene, the world was a very dreary place indeed. Here was a world full of slaves and the doctrine of an eye for an eye. Here was a world devoid of charity in large part.
Now look at the world today. Philosophers who were influenced by Christ's teachings introduced such notions as "natural rights". Oppressive dictatorships are now looked at with disdain. IF you wish to find out who is helping the poor, just google who contributes most of their time and money to helping the poor. You will find a heavy Christian influence that otherwise would be absent. I submit had it not been for Jesus, the world would not have changed much.
Originally posted by whodeyThank you for your extended comment. But I was rather looking for an answer to the question... how does 'having Jesus in your life' influence your contribution ~ as an individual ~ to collective efforts to make life in this world less dystopian? I hear what you said about Christians donating to charity so I assume this means you are claiming to donate money to charity. Aside from that, what specific contributions does your "individualism" and faith give rise to?
As for myself, having Jesus in my life has influenced me greatly. It has caused me not to seek my own will, but that of God.
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Originally posted by whodeywhodey, I find these things in your answers: ...changing the hearts of man ... [not] oppressing and coercing men ... [not] beating a slave into submission ... [promoting] human free will ... [opposing] free will being abused... [seeking to] quell "bad" behavior. ... [supporting] a bottom up approach... [opposing] a top down approach ... [supporting] freedom and peace of mind rather than fear, oppression, and coercion ... [promoting] peace... [opposing] a world full of slaves ... [opposing] the doctrine of an eye for an eye... etc. [feel free to point out any misrepresentation I may have made].
Since you don't know me, just look at the influence Jesus has had on the world since his arrival.
Before Jesus came on the scene, the world was a very dreary place indeed. Here was a world full of slaves and the doctrine of an eye for an eye. Here was a world devoid of charity in large part.
Now look at the world today. Philosophers who were influen ...[text shortened]... ise would be absent. I submit had it not been for Jesus, the world would not have changed much.
I am curious as to how your "individualism" in tandem with your spiritual beliefs actually and specifically contributes to concerted efforts to address these perceived threats and problems that society faces.
Originally posted by FMFIt is to spread the good news and give people hope. It includes giving money, food, time to those who need it.
Thank you for your extended comment. But I was rather looking for an answer to the question... how does 'having Jesus in your life' influence your contribution ~ as an individual ~ to collective efforts to make life in this world less dystopian? I hear what you said about Christians donating to charity so I assume this means you are claiming to donate money to c ...[text shortened]... . Aside from that, what specific contributions does your "individualism" and faith give rise to?
I don't know what more to say.
Originally posted by FMFAs the saying goes, "No man is an island unto himself"
whodey, I find these things in your answers: ...changing the hearts of man ... [not] oppressing and coercing men ... [not] beating a slave into submission ... [promoting] human free will ... [opposing] free will being abused... [seeking to] quell "bad" behavior. ... [supporting] a bottom up approach... [opposing] a top down approach ... [supporting] freedom and ...[text shortened]... ributes to concerted efforts to address these perceived threats and problems that society faces.
Collectivism = power. Those that seek to change the world single handedly, under their own power, will be crushed by those who use collective power to promote change.
The question then becomes, in order to make a difference, to what carriage do you hitch your horse?
Christ said that he represented a kingdom outside this world. It was a kingdom not recognized by the Machiavellian governments of the earth. It was one where power is obtained by serving, and not being served. It is a kingdom where coercion is not needed, because hearts are changed to desire to do what is right.
Originally posted by JS357I just thought I'd add this thought: Individualism implies separate personality, but personality, it seems to me, is not a matter of completely free choice. Out fingerprints differ, but we don't choose them. How do we come to have the personality that we have?
When I was about 12 I became aware of developing a "personality." The words "person" and "persona" come via the Greek for a mask through which the character is voiced. (Per = through, sona - sound.)
I say I became aware of it developing, not necessarily that I was exercising personal freedom in choosing my personality. It was more a process of discovery. Oh ...[text shortened]... gerprints differ, but we don't choose them. How do we come to have the personality that we have?
Not intending to sound dismissive with this one but if not the personalities that we each individually have then what others!??