Intelligence

Originally posted by twhitehead
ed.

Corrected below

I am not sure they were sacred vows given that he wasn't a theist.

I don't know that he was not a theist. And it doesn't matter.


It is a pity that you lack the empowering of the Holy Spirit to be a proper upright human being. Or do you claim to be morally perfect?

I am a sinner saved by grace. I am worst than Einstien ever was. I know I need the Savior.

Far far from being a perfect being I know that I should receive the perfect One - Christ. That was an easy question because I am not saying Albert Einstien needed anything that I myself do not also need very much - Jesus.

I am not morally perfect at all. I do know Who is and how to receive His Spirit and learn to walk in fellowship with Him. And even for the proper love to his or her spouse one needs Christ.

You do not realize how very damaged we fallen sinners are.
You do not realize how much saving we really need.

It is a pity that you lack the empowering of the Holy Spirit to be a proper upright human being. Or do you claim to be morally perfect?

What would be a pity is if I were to die apart from salvation in Christ. But as long as I realize that I am a sinner - as the Bible reveals, and that I need the Savior, there is hope.

If I thought that I were morally perfect then I would scoff at the need for forgiveness and reconciliation to God. I think scoffing at the message of the Gospel would be much more indicative of me thinking - "I am just so perfect that I do not need anything, certainly not God, not God!"

I am glad that Moral Perfection DID come to earth and walk among us. And this Person we can receive for forgiveness from the real guilt of sin and saving from the power of sin.

Originally posted by sonship
I don't know that he was not a theist. And it doesn't matter.

So what does make vows sacred?

I am a sinner saved by grace. I am worst than Einstien ever was. I know I need the Savior.
Then you must lack the empowering of the Holy Spirit or your original post does not make sense.
Your post implied that the empowering of the Holy Spirit makes one a proper upright human being. Is that not what you intended to say?

Originally posted by dominuslatrunculorum
I think many people here have below average intelligence.

Is this linked to their inability to understand Latin?

Originally posted by twhitehead

So what does make vows sacred?

I think you consider the commitment of a man and a woman to one another for marriage as sacred. If the word sacred does not work for you then perhaps another word conveying very serious obligation holds a similar sense.

I think you considered your father and mother as belonging to one another as ... for lack of a better word - sacred. It was not frivolous or a light matter but a weighty matter.

I also think that too many people how for choice break this commitment, whether theists or not, bear a wound in their heart which can be life long. The stain upon their honor has suffered a wound in the chosen failure to follow through on the commitment.

You may find exceptions. But I am not arguing from exceptions.

Here are a few definitions of SACRED. Notice about the fourth one down:

1. devoted or dedicated to a deity or to some religious purpose; consecrated.
2.
entitled to veneration or religious respect by association with divinity or divine things; holy.
3.
pertaining to or connected with religion (opposed to secular or profane ): sacred music; sacred books.
4.
reverently dedicated to some person, purpose, or object:
a morning hour sacred to study.
5.
regarded with reverence:
the sacred memory of a dead hero.
6.
secured against violation, infringement, etc., as by reverence or sense of right:

Arguing that Einstien was not a Thiest, which is questionable, doesn't really matter. He did not believe in a personal God. But he considered the question of a God's existence (probably deistic) as an insult to him.

But regardless of this I see a few definitions of SACRED which would apply to his marriage vows to his first wife as being thus described.

A very, or very very intelligent person can bear the wounds of loss of keeping a sacred commitment. What is important to me is that such a one can be healed of such wounds, forgiven, and pardoned before God. Great intelligence alone will not bring peace with God.

This is good news to many who expected that their great intelligence would render them happiness. And they discovered that some problems in life they couldn't work out with a slide rule.

Originally posted by twhitehead

Then you must lack the empowering of the Holy Spirit or your original post does not make sense.

I certainly could use more of His influence.
But if it didn't make sense it is funny that you find something to object about it so much.

Your post implied that the empowering of the Holy Spirit makes one a proper upright human being. Is that not what you intended to say?

Yes.
This is a matter of growth, process, development.

I know very very few believers in the Holy Spirit who boast that they have arrived at this perfection. They are all admitting that they are on the way.

We do know that we can count upon God's salvation to finally present us before Him blameless and without "spot or wrinkle" or any such thing.

Pray for me that I gain more of the Holy Spirit so that I can write about Jesus with more effectiveness.

Originally posted by sonship
But regardless of this I see a few definitions of SACRED which would apply to his marriage vows to his first wife as being thus described.

And vows to his second wife? Would they also be sacred?

A very, or very very intelligent person can bear the wounds of loss of keeping a sacred commitment. What is important to me is that such a one can be healed of such wounds, forgiven, and pardoned before God. Great intelligence alone will not bring peace with God.
You seem to be saying two very different things and attempting to use one to claim the other.
I think we can all agree that intelligent people, even very intelligent people are not perfect, do things they may not be proud of, suffer from life's various miseries etc.
I think we can also agree that if God exists, intelligence won't necessarily bring one closer to said God.

This is good news to many who expected that their great intelligence would render them happiness.
It seems to me that it would be bad news surely?

And they discovered that some problems in life they couldn't work out with a slide rule.
Again, bad news surely?

Originally posted by dominuslatrunculorum
I think many people here have below average intelligence.

My experience is that there are different kinds of intelligence.

God's creation of the animal world speaks something to me about the natural endowments that He bestows upon different people.

A turtle has the disadvantage of being slow. But it can pull its head inside a hard shell.

A shark has a vicious fighting set of teeth. But I think a shark has to keep moving or it will die.

Some animals are granted one disadvantage which is accompanied by some advantage, and vica versa.

God is so good to give us hints of His way of creating various people. Some with less analytical intellegence are gifted with perhaps great patience. There seems to be a tuning and balance of skills bestowed upon many people.

The Psalm 33 says :

"From the site of His habitation He gazes at all the inhabitants of the earth.

He who fashions the hearts of them all, He who discerns all their works."

I see in this God fashioning us with various sets of advantages and disadvantages and observing what we do with what we have.

A loving parent will love children with different skills. I knew a Yale granduate with a child with retardation. A mother and father will learn to love the bright child of great intelligence and the less bright child. They will also notice different propensities in their children.

It is important to be thankful for what God has bestowed us with in our personalities. It is also important to do something with the abilities you have.

Readers of Sherlock Holmes books will recall that the brilliant detective had a brother who was even better at reasoning that Sherlock was. But he only liked to sit around the men's club. Sherlock liked his work.

The less gifted used his greater diligence.

Anyway, the perfect man was the Son of God. And He still is. And He is available to us.

Originally posted by sonship
But if it didn't make sense it is funny that you find something to object about it so much.

I object because you initially were claiming one thing, but when I pushed you on it you rapidly changed the claim to something totally different.
You initially were saying that great intelligence won't make someone a proper upright human being but that being a Christian will. You now admit that the latter is not true in the slightest. In fact you have more or less said that being a proper upright human being is impossible.
You could just as well have said "Intelligent people get sick too!".

Originally posted by twhitehead
And vows to his second wife? Would they also be sacred?

[b]A very, or very very intelligent person can bear the wounds of loss of keeping a sacred commitment. What is important to me is that such a one can be healed of such wounds, forgiven, and pardoned before God. Great intelligence alone will not bring peace with God.
You seem to be saying t ...[text shortened]... k we can also agree that if God exists, intelligence won't necessarily bring one closer to said God.

This is good news to many who expected that their great intelligence would render them happiness.

It seems to me that it would be bad news surely?

The book Surprised By Joy by C S Lewis is an impressive autobiographical account of a very intelligent man for whom meeting Christ was good news.

And they discovered that some problems in life they couldn't work out with a slide rule.
Again, bad news surely?

If that is a question, (a question mark at the end) I would say that it is good news. Perhaps for the person who thinks all of human life can be reduced to numbers would be disappointed to learn that it is not.

Originally posted by twhitehead

I object because you initially were claiming one thing, but when I pushed you on it you rapidly changed the claim to something totally different.

I am not going to flip back and hunt for whatever it was that caused you a severe problem in comprehension. This seems to be your usual reaction to my posts.

You seem to want to make me think that I cannot think or write clearly. Why don't you just say "Me no speak English mon."

You initially ....

Same procedure as always with you. Flip back over the pages and see what I said.

If you didn't understand something, that is probably your problem and not mine. Maybe you work on not understanding me.

You initially were saying that great intelligence won't make someone a proper upright human being but that being a Christian will.

No I didn't say that exactly. IF you mean that instantaneously in one moment one will be a perfect upright human being.

Didn't I use the word PROCESS? Didn't I use the word GROWTH?

Are you laboring at misundertanding me?

I said Christ was a perfect man or something equivalent to that.
If you "initially" misunderstand, read on. It was made clear to you that the Christian life is a development of growth and a process.

Maybe you deliberately put that way on the back of your reading comprehension in favor of highlighting some initial comment that did not go that far. I think the effort you display is not an effort to understand what I write. It appears rather an effort to cast what I say as nonsensical.

You now admit that the latter is not true in the slightest. In fact you have more or less said that being a proper upright human being is impossible.

There was no correction twhitehead. I don't have to flip back and look at what I wrote. I KNOW that I wrote a post. You retorted some usual atheist complain. Then I wrote some more. And now you want to make it appear that I backtracked.

I wrote a post.
You retorted something.
I wrote some more.
You want to point out that I am changing what I wrote.

At best this is some kind of debating tactic. And it comes off as a gimmick.

tw:
Your post implied that the empowering of the Holy Spirit makes one a proper upright human being. Is that not what you intended to say?


sonship:
Yes.
***This is a matter of growth, process, development.***

I know very very few believers in the Holy Spirit who boast that they have arrived at this perfection. They are all admitting that they are on the way.

We do know that we can count upon God's salvation to finally present us before Him blameless and without "spot or wrinkle" or any such thing.

Pray for me that I gain more of the Holy Spirit so that I can write about Jesus with more effectiveness.

Should be easy to understand that I clarified something which the reader seems to misunderstand. I simply added explanation.

I did not change my ideas.

Then we have this:

I object because you initially were claiming one thing, but when I pushed you on it you rapidly changed the claim to something totally different.

I didn't CHANGE anything. I elaborated.

Originally posted by sonship
The book [b]Surprised By Joy by C S Lewis is an impressive autobiographical account of a very intelligent man for whom meeting Christ was good news.

It seems I misunderstood what you said was good news. I thought you were referring to these sentences:
"Great intelligence alone will not bring peace with God."
"And they discovered that some problems in life they couldn't work out with a slide rule."
Apparently not.

Originally posted by sonship
You seem to want to make me think that I cannot think or write clearly. Why don't you just say "Me no speak English mon."

I think you speak perfectly good English. I just don't think you are very honest in your use of it.

Didn't I use the word PROCESS? Didn't I use the word GROWTH?
Yes, you did. That doesn't resolve the issue.
My understanding of your initial post (that you now refuse to flip back and read), was that you were implying that Einstein, despite his great intelligence, was not morally upstanding and would have been better off less intelligent but Christian. Is that what you intended to imply or did you have some other point to make?
I think we both agree that great intelligence does not automatically make one morally good. But neither does being Christian.