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  1. 16 Sep '09 19:14
    This thread I will be about how some of the the symbols of Revelation 21 and 22 can be understood.

    I will try to stick to my topic. So if someone comes on saying "Luke didn't write Luke!" I am likely to ignore them

    If someone comes out saying "But we don't know that a Jesus ever existed" I likewise will try not to be distracted from my topic.

    Or if someone says "But Revelation was just written because of a power grab which was political in nature" I probably will ignore that too. Someone else can entertain those thoughts if they wish. I will not be getting distracted by these thoughts from interpreting some of the symbols of the New Jerusalem.

    This thread is mainly about Revelation chapters 21 and 22 and its meaning.

    I will speak of the Trinity and the dispensing of God into man. I will speak of the mingling of Dinity and Humanity. I even will be speaking of man becomming God in life and in nature but not in the Godhead.

    This thread is dedicated to the Christians who get their jaws tight when they hear someone say the book of Revelation is junk.

    I will reply to statements requesting the grounds for this or that understanding which I propose.
  2. 16 Sep '09 19:17
    The last two chapters of the Bible are unique. They form a climax, a grand finale.

    This is the destination towards which all of God's activity is moving. Satan is dealt with. He is GONE, in the lake of fire. What do we have now?

    We have a manifestation in symbolic terms of all that God has been after throughout the history of the creation. This is what time is moving towards. This is what is the unhindered accomplishment of the Divine Will. This the final destination. This is the purpose for which creation was created.
  3. 16 Sep '09 19:22
    In these two chapters there is the environement and the center of the environement. There is the new universe and the capital of that new universe the holy city New Jerusalem.

    You also have nations living around the capital of New Jerusalem. It is very interesting.

    That is three realms:

    1. The new heaven and new earth as the stage.

    2. The New Jerusalem as the center and capital of the new creation.

    3. The nations not in New Jerusalem but living around her.
  4. 16 Sep '09 19:25
    Things have not worked out for the best the past 2000 years have they?
  5. 16 Sep '09 19:45 / 2 edits
    "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and first earth passed away, and the sea is no more." (21:1)

    The sea being no more means death is no more. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire in the previous chapter. The absence of the sea is symbolic language for the absence of death.

    No sea means "no death".

    Peter wrote "But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells." ( 2 Pet. 3:13)

    After the last judgment of the great white throne in chapter 20 John sees this new heaven and new earth wherein righteousness will dwell. All are right with God and right with one another.

    Death is abolished.

    It is important to realize that God will not bring into existence a new environment outside of man UNTIL He secures a sizable number of saved people who INWARDLY have been transformed, sanctified, and glorified.

    Our thinking is usually to put the cart before the horse. We humans think that God should give us a perfect environment OUTSIDE then we will do well INSIDE. God could have changed the environment OUTSIDE a long time ago.

    This is after the 1,000 year millennial kingdom. All who have been given the gift of eternal life have now been matured fully. Some pleasantly and some not pleasantly. But all have been transformed and glorified. Since thier inward being is glorious, now God causes their outward environement to match their inward being.

    Going to heaven as is, is not a biblical concept. The "going" is really a transformation into the image of Christ. That is a manifestation of the sons of God. And upon this manifestation the creation itself is freed from decay and vanity to match the glorious expression of the sons of God.

    "For the anxious watching of the creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God.

    For the creation was made subject to vanity, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it,

    In hope that the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

    For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now.

    And not only so, but we ourselves who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan in ourselves, eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body." (Romans 8:19-23)

    Human beings who receive the Spirit of Jesus into them have this sense of the Spirit groaning within for the manifestation of the full mature sons of God. Creation itself is somehow eagerly awaiting this manifestation too.

    The Spirit of Christ is working on the inside of the saved, wroughting Christ's nature into their being. The soul is undergoing transformation. The body is awaiting transfiguration. The children are destined to mature into sons. And the environment follows in this liberation from vanity and decay.

    God is working from the inside of man out. Those who participate in allowing Christ to fill their inward being are participating in the bringing in of a new universe in which righteousness dwells.

    This is the true divine environmentalism and saving of the planet. Yes, by allowing the Spirit of Jesus to saturate your heart and soul you are bringing in the manifestation of the sons of God and freeing of the creation into thier glorious liberty.
  6. 16 Sep '09 20:00 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by 667joe
    Things have not worked out for the best the past 2000 years have they?
    Things have not worked out for the best the past 2000 years have they?

    Joe's complaint is not altogether off topic so I will reply to it.

    The jist of his comment is that in the last 2000 years things have not worked out well. I suppose he means for God's purpose.

    Well, I do not agree because I marvel that the faith of Christ has not been totally eradicated from the earth in the last 2000 years by either the stupid disobedience of Christians or the opposition of the world.

    Rather the faith has grown. Now it is not mandatory that all who receive the gift of eternal life cooperate to become thoroughly santified. I mean man does not always consider it mandatory.

    So, since some cooperate and some do not - therefore, as the years progress, there accumulates more and more overcomers who did cooperate. They may be a minority in every age per se. But in the passage of 2000 years their number encreases.

    These will be rewarded to reign with Christ 1,000 years BEFORE the age of the new heaven and new earth. You can read about this in Revelation 20.

    So the accumulation of overcomers, those cooperating with grace to go on to sanctification and transformation, accumulates in number in Paradise awaiting resurrection.

    This remnant's number is growing with each passing year. Meanwhile the testing of the Gospel from every conceivable angle only goes to prove its indestructible nature.

    Attacks from without cannot destroy the church. Pollution from within cannot destroy the church. The advance of knowledge cannot destroy the church. The advance of philosophies cannot destroy the church.

    In each age the world has its shot to put away the church of Christ and cannot. The ISMs come and go. The church and the gospel remain. The church of God is an anvil that has worn down many hammers.

    As the centries continue the approvedness of the message of Christ stands against all opposition. Its indestructible nature fails to do down into oblivion.

    So over the 2000 years Paul's words ring true:

    "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation or anguish or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword?

    .... But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us, For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities nor things present nor things to come nor powers not height nor depth nor any other creature shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (See Rom. 8:35-39)

    Time tests the value of the Gospel of Christ.
  7. 16 Sep '09 20:18
    "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea was no more." (Rev. 21:1)

    In eternity passed God purpopsed to have a corporate expression of Himself. Ephesians 3:9-11; 1:9-12) show God desired a corporate expression in which He would be glorified and expressed.

    That is a living vessel, a corporate and collective recepticle where God dwells within man. In other words a corperate enlargement of Jesus Christ.

    He created the universe for this purpose.

    All the dispensations under the old heaven and old earth are moving towards this goal. And when God obtains it the old heaven and old earth pass away through fire (2 Peter 3:10-11). The New Jerusalem is fully manifested as the corporate expression of God and man mingled together.

    There are four major dispensations

    1.) From Adam to Moses (Rom. 5:14)

    2.) From Moses to Christ (the despensation of the law) (John 1:17)

    3.) The dispensation of grace, from the first coming of Christ to the restoration of all things at Christ's second coming (Acts 3:20-21)

    4.) From Christ's second coming to the end of the millennial kingdom, the dispensation of the kingdom (Rev. 11:15; 20:4,6)[/b]

    God uses these four dispensations to perfect and complete His chosen people that they may be matured into a corporate expression of the accomplishment of His eternal purpose.

    All four dispensation belong to the old heaven and the old earth. However, the dispensation of the kingdom of 1,000 years is a restoration. It is still in the old heaven and earth even though it is a restoral of the environment to that which Adam knew before his fall.

    When God finishes this work of growing within His people at the end of the dispensation of the millennial kingdom, the old heaven and old earth will pass away through fire and be renewed to become the new heaven and new earth (2 Pet. 3:10-13).
  8. 16 Sep '09 20:29
    "And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Rev. 21:2)

    The holy city is a city whose nature matches God's nature. God alone is holy. For something else to be holy is either because God sets it aside for His use, ie. the holy angels. Or it means that God infuses man with Himself. God dispenses His life and nature into man so that what He is organically is incorporated into man's being.

    God produces a match for Jesus - a bride. The bride matches what Jesus is. Jesus is the God man. The holy city is a corporate group of billions of human being who have collectively bee transformed to match Christ so as to be considered His counterpart.

    Here we have to consider the making of Eve from the rib of Adam. Eve came out of Adam. Then she was brought back to Adam to marry Adam.

    The ONE became TWO. Then the TWO became ONE,. This was not only a history of the first man's wife. This is a window into the eternal plan of God. Out from Himself He takes something to build it into His match, His counterpart.

    "a bride adorned for her husband"

    The saved man, collectively, has undergone a process in which they match the incarnated God man Jesus Christ so as to be His COUNTERPART, ie. His bride. This is the real marriage to which all marriage points to.

    The matching of God's redeemed people to share an eternity as a romantic other to Christ the incarnate God-man, this is the destiny of the saved. And this is what God created the universe.

    "Coming down out of heaven from God" indicates that God is the source of this entity. His wisdom and power has brought this entity into existence.

    Prepared as a bride adorned from her husband signifies, the Savior has become the Husband. The one who died for the sinner becomes the one whom the sinners now MATCH. The manifestation of the sons of God is the sons of God being deified in transformation to match their Lord and Savior.

    This is for His expression in them and their enjoyment of Him.
  9. 16 Sep '09 20:44
    Focusing on the New Jerusalem I am going to skip foward a few passages to some signigicant symbolism:

    "Come here; I will shjow you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.

    And he carried me away in spirit to a great and high mountain and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

    Having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, as clear as crystal." (Rev. 21:10,11)

    The jasper stone is the appearance of God in Revelation chapter 4.
    God the Creator appeared to John as a jasper stone. That the entire city of New Jerusalem has the appearance of a jasper stone signifies that the city bears the corporate appearance of God.

    What God is in expression has been worked into the city. God has dispensed His life and nature into the city. The jasper appearing God of Revelation 4:3 is now matched by a holy city which bears His appearance.

    "And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance ..." (Rev. 4:3)

    The redness of the sardius stone probably signifies the blood of redemption. But the dark green jasper stone signifies the richness of life. I believe that the type of jasper seen here is the dark green kind.

    Green is the color of many living plants on the earth. Green is the color of life. This deep dark rich green of jasper speaks of the richness of God's eternal life.

    When we examine the life of Jesus we do not see a pale green. We see a rich, deep dark green. We do not see a weak life expressed. We see a deep and rich life expressed in His deeds and words. This is what God looks like. God looks like the richness of a glorious human life of splendour.

    The whole city has the appearance of God now. She has the glory of God - " ... the holy city, Jerusalem ... having the glory of God" .
  10. 16 Sep '09 20:50 / 1 edit
    The Bride City - New Jerusalem has the appearance of jasper as God has in chapter 4.

    Then we read "having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, as clear as crystal."

    I believe this is the communicable glory of God expressed as the richness of life. God looks like the precious richness of a splendid life.

    The mention of clear as crystal suggests transparancy. God is within the city and the city is clear as crystal, fully transparent. The God dwelling with man is not hindered in His radiance by man's defect or sins. Rather the redeemed become fully transparent to radiate out the indwelling God who is their eternal life.

    Jesus Christ was the completely transparent God-man. Those who had a heart to see God could see God in the life of Jesus. Nothing in Him obscured the splendour of His Father.

    Now God obtains a city, New Jerusalem, fully transparent in the same way. She has the glory of God. She appears as God. And she is fully transparent so that nothing obscures the shining out of God's life from within her. And she is a match of Christ and a bride adorned for Christ.
  11. 17 Sep '09 00:41 / 2 edits
    New Jerusalem is a living composition of all the believers in God redeemed by God throughout all generations. By definition they are "saints".

    She is the bride of Christ as His counterpart, His "romantic other". Bride and Wife are used by the Holy Spirit to express the profound correspondence and partnership this living "city" has with the Redeemer Christ, Who is her God incarnate.

    That Christ expected a "bride" is told us in John 3:29.

    "He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices with joy because of the bridegroom's voice. This joy of mine therefore is made full.

    He must increase, but I mist decrease." (John 3:29,30)

    People added to Christ are the encrease of Christ. The many people added to Christ are the enlargement of Christ. New Jerusalem is the encrease of Christ, His enlargment from all the human beings redeemed by God and added to Christ by being joined to Him.

    From one angle the New Jerusalem is the Bride of Christ. From another angle she is the dwelling place of God. This is seen in verse 3:

    "And I heard a loud voice out of the throne, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will tabernacle with them ...."

    This tabernacle is a living tabernacle composed of the mingling of God and man. This tabernacle is the "heavenly Jerusalem" spoken of in Hebrews 12:22. This city has been prepared for the redeemed of God and was sought by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They longed after it:

    "For he [Abraham] eagerly waited for a city which has foundations, whose Architect and Builder is God." (Heb. 11:10)

    "But as it is, they (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Sarah) long after a better country, that is a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them." (Heb. 11:16)

    This prepared city for the patriarchs is the New Jerusalem. She is the Bride of Christ, the Wife of Christ, and the dwelling place and tabernacle of God with man.

    In other words the Old Testament patriarchs, whether they knew it or not, were waiting for the mingling of God and man as the "holy city".

    This mingling of God and man is allegorically called "a better country". The whole realm of the incorporation of God into man and man mingled with God is the sphere of man's total salvation, his longing, his expectation, and his divine destiny assigned to Him by God.

    Rather than "going to" a place the saved man is actually being transformed into a "place". The "going" to New Jerusalem is actually the being changed into the image of Christ by the indwelling of the Triune God as life.
  12. 17 Sep '09 01:03 / 1 edit
    Now we must see that the obliteration of human sorrow and human tears is accomplished by the mingling of God into man so that man becomes the living tabernacle of God.

    "And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death will be no more, nor will there be sorrow or crying or pain anymore; for the former things have passed away." (Revelation 21:4)

    In the former things man and God were separated. In the new heaven and new earth God and man are mingled as one entity. If this loses you just keep thinking that the New Jerusalem is the encrease, the expansion, and the enlargement of what Jesus Christ is - the mingling of God and man.

    This mingling of divinity and humanity is the cause of all human sorrow to be done away. God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes.

    Latter we will see that this obliteration of sorrow, pain, and death is not only to those sons of God in the New Jerusalem. It is also to those nations on the new earth living around the New Jerusalem, who walk in her light. Perhaps the races of humans in eternity will continue to multiple.

    I will have to revisit that. However, the constituents of the city have no sorrow or tears or pain or death. And the nations among whom the tabernacle of God, New Jerusalem, comes down to be in their midst, also are freed from every curse.

    "And He will wipe away very tear from their eyes; and death will be no more, nor will there be sorrow or crying or pain anymore; for the former things have passed away."

    We will see that the New Jerusalem is composed symbolically of 12 manner of precious stones. These stones have been produced in the earth by heat, preasure, and water. The heat and preasure are provided by all the misfortune of the fall of man since the sin of Adam. The water is supplied by the flowing of God's life into man as the Holy Spirit. Togther these act to produce transformed human beings. These transformed human beings are symbolized by precious stones. That is gem like jewels. This speaks of the redeemed being metobolically transformed into sons of God.

    Transformed, built up, transparent, and indwelt with by the Triune God, there is no more need for any suffering to drive men into God. Pain and sorrow will be a thing of the past forever. Death will be a thing of the past forever. Eternal life and eternal manifestation of God dwelling in man, man mingled with God in holy city will be the enjoyment.

    Think also of it this way. The New Jerusalem is the born again experience taken to its logical conclusion, amplified a billion times. The birth of the divine life within consummates in the swallowing up of mortality into the total mingling of divinity and humanity.

    Christ is mass produced.