Is Christianity the only way to prove GOD?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Who says they need to come from somewhere? Who says there is a somewhere to come from? The questions themselves show that you are making assumptions without any reason to do so.

I'm making assumption from simple sciense that says all activities result from another cause, being not know doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

You assumed that if you don't know it then it doesn't exist

Originally posted by twhitehead
Example 1.
All activity on the quantum scale has random elements ie no known cause.
This includes the spontaneous creation of matter.
Example 2.
The origin of the universe has no known cause.

Example 1.
All activity on the quantum scale has random elements ie no known cause.
This includes the spontaneous creation of matter.

I'm not an expert to judge this, so please give a source, but no known cause doesn't mean there is no cause.

Originally posted by ahosyney
[b]Example 1.
All activity on the quantum scale has random elements ie no known cause.
This includes the spontaneous creation of matter.

I'm not an expert to judge this, so please give a source, but no known cause doesn't mean there is no cause.[/b]

Neither does it mean DeityDunnit.

--- Penguin.

I was trying to put angle brackets around 'deity' but it won't let me. Any suggestions how to do this?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Example 1.
All activity on the quantum scale has random elements ie no known cause.
This includes the spontaneous creation of matter.
Example 2.
The origin of the universe has no known cause.

Example 2.
The origin of the universe has no known cause.

021.030
YUSUFALI: Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

PICKTHAL: Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?

SHAKIR: Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were closed up, but We have opened them; and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe?

That is what the Quran said about the cause 1400 years ago. So I believed him.

Also Quran said in another verse:


051.047
YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample

So it also tell us that it is expanding as well.

Originally posted by Penguin
Neither does it mean DeityDunnit.

--- Penguin.

I was trying to put angle brackets around 'deity' but it won't let me. Any suggestions how to do this?

Why don't you try to understand what I'm saying.

I was asking him to give me an example of something happen that doesn't have a cause. And he give an example of things he claim that there is no know cause for them.

My question was about things without a cause.

And his answer was about things without a know cause.

Are they equal?

Originally posted by ahosyney
1- My mind tell me that this universe didn't come from not where.
2- My mind tell me that every thing has a cause to do it.
3- Human tried to explain the cause of every thing, but it always leads to a chaing of reasoning. For example:

You assume that Natural selection casued different speciece development. But they are depending in Physical laws to do you don't believe that this being exist is not valide.

Does this make any sense to you?

1- My mind tell me that this universe didn't come from not where.

So does mine. How does God fit into this? My mind tells me to smoke cigarettes which are bad for me which leads me to believe my mind doesn't always have my best interests at heart...

2- My mind tell me that every thing has a cause to do it.

So does mine. Everything in the Universe has a cause and an effect. Where does God come into it? I don't see anything to suggest a God started it!

3- Human tried to explain the cause of every thing, but it always leads to a change of reasoning.

Maybe so, i still don't see what this has to do with God?

You assume that Natural selection caused different species development.

I assume nothing, the evidence points towards evolution, as soon as there is evidence to support another possibility, i'll be open to it. Thus far i haven't seen any.

But they are depending in Physical laws to do so. Where these physical laws came from?

I don't know, but i see no evidence to suggest it was a God so i therefore don't believe it was a God. Unanswered questions don't imply super natural beings. If i find a brick with a banana glued to it in the middle of a football pitch, i wonder how it got there. I don't just assume God put it there!

where all the material that form all living and non living stuff came from,

It comes from Stars. Where did the stars come from? I don't know, but see no evidence to suggest it was God.

So this tell me that there must be another cause that cause it to happen or exist.

There is a cause (obviously). Why should i believe it's a God?

And this thing is not from the same material and not following the same laws because he/she/it the cause for it. That is my logic tell me.

Stop! You just jumped to a massive conclusion! How do you know this? Really, just because the Universe is really really Big and complex now, doesn't mean it started like that. It could have been something really really simple to start with, we don't know yet! I will not subscribe to believing anything one way or the other without some sort of evidence!

I didn't assume that this thing, or being is intelligent, I just assumed that these laws and material didn't come from no where, so give me a reason why shouldn't I think so, while every thing follow this rule.


These laws are OUR laws! They did come from somewhere, they came from US! Our perception of the Universe is limited by our senses so we construct elaborate ways to understand the things that we can't see. These 'laws' aren't Universal at all, they don't really exist except as a means to an end. If we observe something in the Universe that refutes these laws, we change the law! No where, at any point, have you given me anything approaching a reason to believe in God. Maybe you should consider the possibility that you're letting your imagination run away with you...

Originally posted by Marinkatomb
1- My mind tell me that this universe didn't come from not where.

So does mine. How does God fit into this?

2- My mind tell me that every thing has a cause to do it.

So does mine. Everything in the Universe has a cause and an effect. Where does God come into it? I don't see anything to suggest a God started it!

[i]3- Human tried the possibility that you're letting your imagination run away with you...

I never said I assume it is GOD from the begining. Did I? Show me where I assumed that GOD did all of that, you are jumping to the results not me. I didn't mention GOD in the first part of my passage, and if you check the second post I copied from the "Quran" thread , you will see it clear. So pleased don't say something I didn't say...

I don't know, but i see no evidence to suggest it was a God so i therefore don't believe it was a God. Unanswered questions don't imply super natural beings. If i find a brick with a banana glued to it in the middle of a football pitch, i wonder how it got there. I don't just assume God put it there!

If you really read my posts you will understand what I'm talking about.

These laws are OUR laws! They did come from somewhere, they came from [b]US! Our perception of the Universe is limited by our senses so we construct elaborate ways to understand the things that we can't see. These 'laws' aren't Universal at all, they don't really exist except as a means to an end. If we observe something in the Universe that refutes these laws, we change the law! No where, at any point, have you given me anything approaching a reason to believe in God. Maybe you should consider the possibility that you're letting your imagination run away with you...[/b]

I don't agree with you. These laws do exist long before we got envolved, our rule as human was to discover them. They were there before we discover them and formulate them. So actully we didn't create those laws. You statment is not correct.

----------------------------------
Now I will give this: Please don't ignore it:

I said in my post:

2- My mind tell me that every thing has a cause to do it.

and you siad:

So does mine. Everything in the Universe has a cause and an effect. Where does God come into it? I don't see anything to suggest a God started it!

So I assume you agree with me in the following:

Lets say there is a being X (could be anything we see or know), and we know that X is caused , or emerged from Y.

And because every thing has a cause then Y must have some cause, source lets call it Z. So we will do that for ever,

Z caused by XX , and XX caused by YY , and so on.

One of the islamic sciences called "Tawheed" (you can translate it Oness of GOD, you can understand it as the pholosophy of Islamic faith) we call this endless chain of cause and effect.

Do you think this endless chain is possible?

I will stop here waiting fo your opinion...

Originally posted by ahosyney
I never said I assume it is GOD from the begining. Did I? Show me where I assumed that GOD did all of that, you are jumping to the results not me. I didn't mention GOD in the first part of my passage, and if you check the second post I copied from the "Quran" thread , you will see it clear. So pleased don't say something I didn't say...

[b]I don't know, ...[text shortened]... endless chain is possible?

I will stop here waiting fo your opinion...

Do you believe in God?

Originally posted by Marinkatomb
Do you believe in God?

What do you think?

Originally posted by ahosyney
What do you think?

I think you do.

Originally posted by Marinkatomb
I think you do.

So what is the problem, why did you ask?

Originally posted by ahosyney
So what is the problem, why did you ask?

The problem is that you started your post by saying "I never said I assume it is GOD from the beginning. Did I?" Well if you believe in God without evidence, you are assuming God did it from the beginning. Unless you believe he picked it up from the middle?

I'd like to address your whole post, but it is the end of the working day and i have to leave now. I'll reply fully when i get home. 🙂

Originally posted by Marinkatomb
The problem is that you started your post by saying "I never said I assume it is GOD from the beginning. Did I?" Well if you believe in God without evidence, you are assuming God did it from the beginning. Unless you believe he picked it up from the middle?

I'd like to address your whole post, but it is the end of the working day and i have to leave now. I'll reply fully when i get home. 🙂

It seems that you don't understand what I'm trying to say.

When I'm talking about evidences I have two parallel directions:

One of them is the logical reasoning based on what my mind could reach, and the scientific knowladge I have. In this direction I don't assume that GOD is the cause. I assume that I'm like you, don't know anything about GOD, and start thinking.

So when I'm talking about cause and action, I assume no GOD.

Do you understand it now?

The other direction is Quran and other books , sent from GOD to people. In this direction I see support for my concolusions from the first direction.

The two directions together lead me to GOD. Not one of them alone. So I don't depend on scripture alone, and I don't depend on sciense and my mind alone. Depending on only one of them will lead to one of two results:

1- If you depend in your mind alone you my not beleive in GOD. But this not because he doesn't exist, but because you didn't cover all the aspects.
2- If you depend in scriptures and prophets alone, will have a blind faith. And I don't like to have blind faith.

Also using the second direction to reason for the first one is nonsense.

I'd like to address your whole post, but it is the end of the working day and i have to leave now. I'll reply fully when i get home. 🙂

I'm waiting for you. But which post are you talking about, I made many posts (20 or more).

Originally posted by twhitehead
There is two types of evidence. One type can be used by any intelligent person to convince any other intelligent person that it is valid evidence that points to the thing in question. The other type of evidence cannot be used that way. For example, although you see Gods handwork in life you cannot convincingly justify such a view to any intelligent person who does not already hold such a view.

There are several types of people too, those that think they are
the cream of the crop and every thought that enters their head
are good and true and the rest of us. You thoughts about evidence
must be correct, because it is you, the intelligent one?
Kelly

Originally posted by Marinkatomb
The problem is that you started your post by saying "I never said I assume it is GOD from the beginning. Did I?" Well if you believe in God without evidence, you are assuming God did it from the beginning. Unless you believe he picked it up from the middle?

I'd like to address your whole post, but it is the end of the working day and i have to leave now. I'll reply fully when i get home. 🙂

He like I and others when in a discussion would like the points we
bring up not your ability to read minds as content for the discussion.
As soon as you start mind reading the discussion breaks down and
we are left with your assumptions not the points of interest in the
discussion.
Kelly