1. Joined
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    25 Apr '05 17:59
    Maybe some people can field this one for me...

    We have an omnipotent being, who can do anything.. yet it never speaks (verbally).

    If you have this all powerfuly being, realistically, you'd expect it to talk in a way we can understand.

    Now I've heard people say "god speaks through others", and you need to "listen before you can hear him". To me, this sounds like a cop-out (no offense to believers). I want to know how come he does not speak directly.

    In the old testament God was pretty talkative. You couldn't get him to shut up.

    If you speak to god, in my opinion he should speak back. The same way you do. That is usually how communication works. Communication is over the same medium, a controlled way of ensuring efficiency.

    If someone was claiming to talk to god verbally, and clams to hear a response verbally, we'd all think he is crazy. I take this as an assumption people really don't believe it can happen. Why?

    In short, I am curious to know how people justify this? Wouldn't the fact that you know God won't respond to you verbally instill a level of doubt about his existence?

    Just curious, let me know your thoughts
  2. Standard memberColetti
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    25 Apr '05 18:17
    Originally posted by nicknomo
    Maybe some people can field this one for me...

    We have an omnipotent being, who can do anything.. yet it never speaks (verbally).

    If you have this all powerfuly being, realistically, you'd expect it to talk in a way we can understand.

    Now I've heard people say "god speaks through others", and you need to "listen before you can hear him". To ...[text shortened]... erbally instill a level of doubt about his existence?

    Just curious, let me know your thoughts
    I like instructions written down. It's much more efficient than passing on verbal instructions.
  3. Joined
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    25 Apr '05 18:201 edit
    What if your questions or concerns aren't written about in the Bible?
  4. Standard memberColetti
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    25 Apr '05 18:26
    Originally posted by nicknomo
    What if your questions or concerns aren't written about in the Bible?
    Depends on the question doesn't it? I mean, if your talking about what tie I should choose to wear, I don't think it's going to help.
  5. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    25 Apr '05 18:32
    Originally posted by nicknomo
    Maybe some people can field this one for me...

    We have an omnipotent being, who can do anything.. yet it never speaks (verbally).

    If you have this all powerfuly being, realistically, you'd expect it to talk in a way we can understand.

    Now I've heard people say "god speaks through others", and you need to "listen before you can hear him". To ...[text shortened]... erbally instill a level of doubt about his existence?

    Just curious, let me know your thoughts
    God speaks all the time. We are seperated from God by our nature; in other words, we are incapable of hearing the Voice of God, at least not clearly, as it is outside of our intellectual capacity. Christianity (among other religions thoughout time) perverted this seperation into something they call "original sin," saying that God is, or has been, disgusted by us slimy sinful humans. Poppycock.

    We still pick up on the Voice of God from time to time, something that is much akin to catching a shadow out of the corner of your eye; you're positive that there is something there, but you're not sure what. Our minds refuse to admit defeat on this matter, so occasionally they manage to translate the Voice of God into something similar yet perceivable to our senses. These accomplishments come out in music, art, poetry and prose. They come out in the lines of a building or the purr of a motor. You get the idea I think.

    These are my thoughts in a nutshell on the Voice of God. Or Santa Claus, if you ask Darfius.

    ... --- ...
  6. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    25 Apr '05 18:35
    Originally posted by thesonofsaul
    God speaks all the time. We are seperated from God by our nature; in other words, we are incapable of hearing the Voice of God, at least not clearly, as it is outside of our intellectual capacity.
    If God is omnipotent, then one of his powers must include a sort of ventriloquism that can speak to human ears. Thus, your argument that his natural voice is outside of our capacity to hear is irrelevant.
  7. Joined
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    25 Apr '05 18:36
    Originally posted by Coletti
    Depends on the question doesn't it? I mean, if your talking about what tie I should choose to wear, I don't think it's going to help.
    :-)

    Seriously...
    Abortion, gay rights, death penalty, war... and the very big gray area that usually resides in real life.

    Then there is the question "which religions is the right one"? There are a lot of texts.. which one to follow? Or "do you exist". If there is someone there, I'd expect them to answer..

    I'd think that there actually be a lot to communicate, especially if your ass is on the line for now and all eternity.
  8. Joined
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    25 Apr '05 18:38
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    If God is omnipotent, then one of his powers must include a sort of ventriloquism that can speak to human ears. Thus, your argument that his natural voice is outside of our capacity to hear is irrelevant.
    This is my point as well. He should be capable of doing so, but chooses not to.
  9. Standard memberColetti
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    25 Apr '05 19:03
    Originally posted by nicknomo
    :-)

    Seriously...
    Abortion, gay rights, death penalty, war... and the very big gray area that usually resides in real life.

    Then there is the question "which religions is the right one"? There are a lot of texts.. which one to follow? Or "do you exist". If there is someone there, I'd expect them to answer..

    I'd think that there actually be a lot to communicate, especially if your ass is on the line for now and all eternity.
    Many, if not most, of the answers to those questions can be deduced from scripture "by good and necessary consequence" as the Westminster Confession" says. And those that are not clear, should still be decided with scripture in mind.

    Abortion: is not spoken of directly, but is addressed implicitly.
    Gay right: this can be addressed also.
    Death penalty - the bible speaks to this implicitly (giving the state the right to wield the sword).
    War: may be harder to answer, and may depend on the "war" in question.

    As for which religion, that would be Christianity. 🙂
  10. Standard memberColetti
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    25 Apr '05 19:04
    Originally posted by nicknomo
    This is my point as well. He should be capable of doing so, but chooses not to.
    I agree.
  11. Joined
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    25 Apr '05 19:15
    Then why?

    Especially if he wants you to have faith in him, and take upon the right religious ideas.

    If god wanted you to follow his word, shouldn't he make it obvious and clear to you what that word is?

    In a world where many religious are worshipped at once, wouldn't god make it clear to the other faiths that they aren't going down the right path?
  12. Standard memberdj2becker
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    25 Apr '05 19:32
    Originally posted by nicknomo
    Then why?

    Especially if he wants you to have faith in him, and take upon the right religious ideas.

    If god wanted you to follow his word, shouldn't he make it obvious and clear to you what that word is?

    In a world where many religious are worshipped at once, wouldn't god make it clear to the other faiths that they aren't going down the right path?
    Especially if he wants you to have faith in him, and take upon the right religious ideas.

    I suppose if He spoke with a booming voice from Heaven we would not require any faith to believe in him would we?

    If god wanted you to follow his word, shouldn't he make it obvious and clear to you what that word is?

    Don't you think the Bible is clear enough? If so you need God's holy spirit to reveal it to you. That is why He sent it in the first place.

    In a world where many religious are worshipped at once, wouldn't god make it clear to the other faiths that they aren't going down the right path?

    Well it's as clear as can be if they would only read the Bible and accept it as God's word.
  13. Standard memberColetti
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    25 Apr '05 19:34
    Originally posted by nicknomo
    Then why?

    Especially if he wants you to have faith in him, and take upon the right religious ideas.

    If god wanted you to follow his word, shouldn't he make it obvious and clear to you what that word is?

    In a world where many religious are worshipped at once, wouldn't god make it clear to the other faiths that they aren't going down the right path?
    I think it is clear. But some parts do tend to confuse some people - I think this also is intentional on God's part. God is logical, but some people are confused by their emotions and a very strong desire to hold on to their own autonomy.

    Christianity requires one to realize they are not autonomous in reality. That's a big pill to swallow, and some people psychologically choke on it - but logically it's not hard at all.
  14. Joined
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    25 Apr '05 20:242 edits
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    [b]Especially if he wants you to have faith in him, and take upon the right religious ideas.

    I suppose if He spoke with a booming voice from Heaven we would not require any faith to believe in him would we?

    If god wanted y ...[text shortened]... they would only read the Bible and accept it as God's word.
    [/b]
    [/b]
    No offense, but that argument doesn't hold water. As an atheist I've surveyed a few religions for educational purposes... I frequently take part in discussions like this, so it is rather helpful.

    No religions present a better case than any others. I have read a great deal of the bible. When taking part in religious discussions, it is inevitable.

    I see nothing different about the Christian text when compared to Islam. Of course core beliefs differ, but in terms of validation? There is no difference there. Both claim the same thing you are claiming.


    Don't you think the Bible is clear enough? If so you need God's holy spirit to reveal it to you. That is why He sent it in the first place.

    Well it's as clear as can be if they would only read the Bible and accept it as God's word.


    Those who worship Islam claim the same thing. Buddhists seem pretty lax on the other hand... Then look at the Mormons, they have their own book and they use yours too. All say the same thing.. "This religion is right, the other are confused". "They've closed their hearts to the REAL god", etc etc.

    Why do you need faith? Wouldn't you rather know than have faith? For all you know, Allah could be pretty pissed off right now...

    One of my friends, who refuses to become an atheists, and adamant about god's existence has basically religion hopped.. Christian to mormon, now undecided. What would you say to such a person who has attempted to find god, but received no guidance in turn? I'd expect God to intervene here.

    That's why I can't understand people's lack of scrutiny. People will often be unwavering in their skepticism when they go to a car dealership, but not with religion (no matter which one). Honestly, I don't get it..

    Will the real god please stand up, please stand up...

    When no one stands up, I personally think that should make you go "hrmmm, is anyone even there?"
  15. Donationkirksey957
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    25 Apr '05 20:36
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    If God is omnipotent, then one of his powers must include a sort of ventriloquism that can speak to human ears. Thus, your argument that his natural voice is outside of our capacity to hear is irrelevant.
    That would explain why some seem to be sitting in God's lap with his hand moving their mouths.
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