1. SubscriberFMF
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    28 Jan '15 08:371 edit
    Originally posted by KingOnPoint on the Abundant Life thread
    Science doesn't put you with God. Science doesn't try to give you a relationship with God. Science has failed to answer the questions of how the universe was formed and how humanity came about. We cannot depend on science either, when it comes to disproving creation for both the universe and human existence.

    Spiritual Faith is the way we believe in God. Faith in science will not pair us with God. Logically, faith in God has a better chance for our eternal life than human science. Why choose science which doesn't try to pair you with God?


    Nor has Christianity offered convincing answers to the questions of how the universe was formed and how humanity came about! To me, at best, it may have offered an allegory.

    So why not look at "science" in a different way?

    Why not see scientists as God's creatures, exercising their God given talents – even if many of them do not acknowledge they were “given” them – and their God given natural curiosity and determination, to push the knowledge of humanity ~ God's creation ~ to its apparent boundaries and beyond, revelling in the astounding capacity of the God given human spirit, to delve deeper and deeper into the wondrous realities of the earth and the universe ~ God's creation ~ and to truly marvel at what this creation is and how it works?

    Why not just look upon scientists as part of God's creation, then, instrumental in exploring that creation in this way and not get sidetracked by whether or not they just so happen to subscribe to 'answers' that Judaism settled upon and that you subscribe to, or the breakaway religion that Judaism gave rise to?

    Why does it matter to you if scientists are believers or non-believers? Surely you believe it is God’s creation that they are examining? Whether they believe that it is God’s creation that they are examining should hardly matter to you if you are confident in your belief that it is?

    Why is it important to you to reject the endeavours and insights and discoveries of people who are finding out how this universe – designed and deliberately constructed according to your beliefs – actually works, and then marvel at its design and construction, even if they still don’t see it your way?

    Why expect all these brilliant, talented, inquisitive humans to simply settle for explanations that you just so happened to have settled for?
  2. Cape Town
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    28 Jan '15 09:12
    Originally posted by FMF
    Is the science/theism dichotomy necessary?
    I would say that it is practically impossible to avoid. Science is a methodology for learning about the universe. If you accept that methodology as valid, you should logically throw out as invalid the methodologies used in theism - especially when the results are in contradiction.
  3. SubscriberFMF
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    28 Jan '15 09:22
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I would say that it is practically impossible to avoid. Science is a methodology for learning about the universe. If you accept that methodology as valid, you should logically throw out as invalid the methodologies used in theism - especially when the results are in contradiction.
    The predominant methodologies used in theism ~ or at least the brand of methodology that the OP takes aim at ~ as far as I can see, is to take ancient literature literally and reject knowledge incompatible with that. I think it ought to be possible to set aside this simplistic, self-limiting approach and embrace the discoveries of science as revelations about creation. I have met many Christians who have set it aside and who, in their own way, are therefore giving their God figure more credit (so to speak) than YEC folks do.
  4. Standard memberRJHinds
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    28 Jan '15 09:53
    Originally posted by FMF
    Originally posted by KingOnPoint on the Abundant Life thread
    [b]Science doesn't put you with God. Science doesn't try to give you a relationship with God. Science has failed to answer the questions of how the universe was formed and how humanity came about. We cannot depend on science either, when it comes to disproving creation for both the universe and ...[text shortened]... uisitive humans to simply settle for explanations that you just so happened to have settled for?
    Most, if not all, scientists of the past believed in God. So I don't see science as an enemy to God, but as an extention of understanding the knowledge of God.

    However, today there are far too many scientists (evolutionists) that try to discredit God with their so-called science.
  5. Cape Town
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    28 Jan '15 10:06
    Originally posted by FMF
    The predominant methodologies used in theism ~ or at least the brand of methodology that the OP takes aim at ~ as far as I can see, is to take ancient literature literally and reject knowledge incompatible with that. I think it ought to be possible to set aside this simplistic, self-limiting approach and embrace the discoveries of science as revelations about cr ...[text shortened]... heir own way, are therefore giving their God figure more credit (so to speak) than YEC folks do.
    I disagree. I am yet to meet a Christian that has genuinely set aside anything in the Bible that comes into contradiction with science. Many claim to have done so, but upon further questioning you will discover that it is not true. People seem remarkably good at holding contradictory views without letting it bother them too much.
  6. SubscriberFMF
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    28 Jan '15 10:12
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I disagree. I am yet to meet a Christian that has genuinely set aside anything in the Bible that comes into contradiction with science. Many claim to have done so, but upon further questioning you will discover that it is not true. People seem remarkably good at holding contradictory views without letting it bother them too much.
    Well my experience is different. I have met many Christians over the years who see the bits in the early part of the Bible pertaining to the creation of the universe and how its contents have developed as allegory and, moreover, they are interested in scientific discoveries that reveal more and more about what actually did happen. This, it seems to me, they are able to do without worrying about the religious beliefs of the scientists involved.
  7. SubscriberFMF
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    28 Jan '15 10:14
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    ...I don't see science as an enemy to God, but as an extention of understanding the knowledge of God.
    This is not borne out by any of your postings that I have read.
  8. Cape Town
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    28 Jan '15 10:40
    Originally posted by FMF
    I have met many Christians over the years who see the bits in the early part of the Bible pertaining to the creation of the universe and how its contents have developed as allegory...
    Yes, that is actually true for probably the majority of Christians. Certainly the Catholic Church and the Anglican Church (I was brought up as Anglican) accept an ancient universe and some measure of evolution, although official policy tends to be a bit vague on the subject.

    and, moreover, they are interested in scientific discoveries that reveal more and more about what actually did happen.
    Again, my family are all interested in science and quite well educated in it too.

    This, it seems to me, they are able to do without worrying about the religious beliefs of the scientists involved.
    Again, no disagreement there.

    But none of the above addresses the real issues. Try asking some of those Christians about Jesus rising from the dead, or more interestingly questions about the soul and the implications of modern brain science and you will quickly see difficulties arise. Also try asking them why they are religious in the first place.
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    28 Jan '15 16:08
    Originally posted by FMF
    Originally posted by KingOnPoint on the Abundant Life thread
    [b]Science doesn't put you with God. Science doesn't try to give you a relationship with God. Science has failed to answer the questions of how the universe was formed and how humanity came about. We cannot depend on science either, when it comes to disproving creation for both the universe and ...[text shortened]... uisitive humans to simply settle for explanations that you just so happened to have settled for?
    This fellow is on the same track you suggest is possible:

    From Wikipedia:

    Francis Sellers Collins (born April 14, 1950) is an American physician-geneticist noted for his discoveries of disease genes and his leadership of the Human Genome Project. He is director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) in Bethesda, Maryland.

    Before being appointed director of the NIH, Collins led the Human Genome Project and other genomics research initiatives as director of the National Human Genome Research Institute (NHGRI), one of the 27 institutes and centers at NIH. Before joining NHGRI, he earned a reputation as a gene hunter at the University of Michigan. He has been elected to the Institute of Medicine and the National Academy of Sciences, and has received the Presidential Medal of Freedom and the National Medal of Science.

    ...

    He eventually came to a conclusion, and became an Evangelical Christian during a hike on a fall afternoon. He has described himself as a "serious Christian".[23]

    In his 2006 book The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief, Collins wrote that scientific discoveries were an "opportunity to worship" and that he rejected both Young Earth creationism and intelligent design. His own belief, he wrote, was theistic evolution or evolutionary creation, which he preferred to call BioLogos. He wrote that one can "think of DNA as an instructional script, a software program, sitting in the nucleus of the cell".[53] He appeared in December 2006 on The Colbert Report television show and in a March 2007 Fresh Air radio interview to discuss this book.[54][55]

    Collins is a critic of intelligent design, and for this reason he was not asked to participate in the 2008 documentary Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. Walt Ruloff, a producer for the film, claimed that by rejecting intelligent design, Collins was "toeing the party line", which Collins called "just ludicrous".[56][clarification needed] In 2007, Collins founded the BioLogos Foundation to "contribute to the public voice that represents the harmony of science and faith". He served as the foundation's president until he was confirmed as director of the NIH.[57]
  10. SubscriberFMF
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    28 Jan '15 16:17
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    But none of the above addresses the real issues. Try asking some of those Christians about Jesus rising from the dead, or more interestingly questions about the soul and the implications of modern brain science and you will quickly see difficulties arise. Also try asking them why they are religious in the first place.
    I have met Christians who are open to and curious about scientific explanations for our personhood [soul, spirit, consciousness, individuality, personality, ego/id etc.], for example, and who think that what is discovered about it will get us nearer to understand the true nature of things.
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    28 Jan '15 16:24
    Science does not provide an answer to The Meaning of Life, and neither do landscaping or Diesel Mechanics. Is that their purpose?
  12. SubscriberFMF
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    28 Jan '15 16:39
    Originally posted by catstorm
    Science does not provide an answer to The Meaning of Life, and neither do landscaping or Diesel Mechanics. Is that their purpose?
    When conjecture and wishful thinking about "The Meaning of Life" ~ as satisfying or consoling or purpose-creating or as diverse as it may be for people ~ blinds them to the discovered realities of the universe they live in, which they believe was created, then the science/theism dichotomy results in a kind of spiritual and intellectual (and perhaps even an emotional) cop out, to my way of thinking. It seems to indicate a rather peculiar incuriousness (if that's a word) about the nature of what is supposedly the wonderous work of their God figure.
  13. SubscriberFMF
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    28 Jan '15 16:40
    Originally posted by JS357
    This fellow is on the same track you suggest is possible:

    From Wikipedia: [...]
    Thanks JS357.
  14. Cape Town
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    28 Jan '15 16:42
    Originally posted by FMF
    I have met Christians who are open to and curious about scientific explanations for our personhood [soul, spirit, consciousness, individuality, personality, ego/id etc.], for example, and who think that what is discovered about it will get us nearer to understand the true nature of things.
    I am willing to bet that they will nevertheless deny the validity of scientific findings that go against their beliefs, or they will simply refuse to discuss the contradictions.
  15. SubscriberFMF
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    28 Jan '15 16:50
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I am willing to bet that they will nevertheless deny the validity of scientific findings that go against their beliefs, or they will simply refuse to discuss the contradictions.
    This may be true for many Christians I suppose. But this struggle with things "that go against their beliefs" applies to everyone and in matters unrelated to religion. It applies to interpersonal things and political things and so on. It is part of the human condition I suppose.
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