1. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    30 May '18 19:16
    'All who have sinned without the law will perish without the law. (RO 2:12)

    'Where there is no law there is no transgression (sin).' (RO 4:15)

    Tom suggests the two are complimentary. But if no transgression occurs where no law is present, why will anybody perish as a consequence?
  2. SubscriberTom Wolsey
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    30 May '18 19:23
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    'All who have sinned without the law will perish without the law. (RO 2:12)

    'Where there is no law there is no transgression (sin).' (RO 4:15)

    Tom suggests the two are complimentary. But if no transgression occurs where no law is present, why will anybody perish as a consequence?
    Perish means to die. We will all perish.

    Are you claiming some other definition?
  3. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    30 May '18 19:59
    Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
    Perish means to die. We will all perish.

    Are you claiming some other definition?
    Perish - Die, especially in a violent or sudden way.


    'What is the Biblical Meaning of Perish?

    The Wicked Shall Perish: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). A double enunciation of the truth is couched in this short text. It is that eternal life is to be obtained only through Christ, and that all who do not thus obtain it will eventually perish. John testifies further on the same point in his first epistle (1 John 5:11): "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son." From which it follows, as a most natural consequence, that "he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." Verse 12.

    The fact that men are "perishing" and need salvation is emphasized again and again. We have noticed the word in John 3:16. In 1 Cor. 1:18 we read, "For the preaching of the cross is to them who are perishing - foolishness, but unto them who are being saved - unto us it is the power of God." It is the same word (translated "lost" in A.V.) in 2 Cor. 4:3, "If our gospel is veiled, to them who are perishing it is veiled."

    "My mind fails to conceive a grosser misinterpretation of language than when the five or six strongest words which the Greek tongue possesses, signifying 'destroy,' or 'destruction,' are explained to mean maintaining an everlasting but wretched existence. To translate black as white is nothing to this." —Dr. Weymouth


    https://truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/death/perish.php#.Ww8Bgu4vzIU
  4. SubscriberTom Wolsey
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    30 May '18 20:33
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    'All who have sinned without the law will perish without the law. (RO 2:12)

    'Where there is no law there is no transgression (sin).' (RO 4:15)

    Tom suggests the two are complimentary. But if no transgression occurs where no law is present, why will anybody perish as a consequence?
    All who have sinned without the law (that is they did not know the law, never heard it)
    will die without the law (that is, not be judged according to the law). This makes sense, does it not?

    Where there is no law there is no transgression. And again, if there is no knowledge of any law, how can one consciously break it?

    Complimentary.

    As far as you reading something else into it by trying to say the English word "perish" can only mean something other than "die." Well, it's a stretch too far. You submitted the literary definition - specifically geared toward literary works... a more colorful word chosen by authors of novels and poems. "Perish" means to die, or to be killed. For the sake of this discussion, it simply means to die. Why make it mean something else? Occam's Razor and all that.

    If we take "perish" to mean smote by God or something severe like that, then the verse would be rendered completely nonsensical. There are millions, perhaps billions of people that at this moment have never been taught the law. You mean to suggest Paul is saying every one of them shall be struck down by God this very moment? Hogwash.
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    30 May '18 21:257 edits
    'Where there is no law there is no transgression (sin).' (RO 4:15)


    I don't know who wrote this, but "(sin)" in parenthasis seems to be the supplied understanding. What I see in all the English versions of Romans 4:15 is that where there is no law there is no trangression (or violation or disobedience) etc.

    Ie.

    KJ21 because the law worketh wrath; for where there is no law, there is no transgression.
    ASV for the law worketh wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression.
    AMP For the Law results in [God’s] wrath [against sin], but where there is no law, there is no violation [of it either].
    AMPC For the Law results in [divine] wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression [of it either].
    BRG for where no law is, there is no transgression.
    CSB And where there is no law, there is no transgression.
    CEB But when there isn’t any law, there isn’t any violation of the law.
    CJB But where there is no law, there is also no violation.
    CEV But where there isn’t a law, it cannot be broken.
    DARBY but where no law is neither [is there] transgression.
    DLNT But where there is no Law, neither is there transgression.
    DRA For where there is no law, neither is there transgression.
    ERV But if there is no law, then there is nothing to disobey.
    EHV (Where there is no law, there is no transgression.)
    ESV but where there is no law there is no transgression.
    ESVUK but where there is no law there is no transgression.
    EXB But if there is no law, there is ·nothing to disobey [no transgression/violation;

    GNV for where no Law is, there is no transgression.
    GW But where those laws don’t exist, they can’t be broken.
    etc.


    While the overall question would require some study, Romans 4:15 does not seem to me to mean where there is no law there is no SIN NATURE. Just that where there is no law there is no transgression of it.

    Sin entered the world through one man Adam, says Paul in chapter 5.

    "Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, ... " (Rom. 5:v.12a)

    "For until the law sin was in the world but sin was not charged to one's account when there is no law." (Rom. 5:13)


    The nature of sin was in the world from Adam before and after the law.

    What I read in chapter 4 is not that before the law there was no sin nature but that transgression was not accounted in some way.

    I have always had some difficulty understanding Rom. 5:12.

    "Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death, and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned-" (5:12)


    I have trouble having confidence that I can fully explain what Paul had in mind here.
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