1. Joined
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    26 Aug '16 08:00
    (Isaiah 43:10) “You are my witnesses,” declares Jehovah, “Yes, my servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and have faith in me
    And understand that I am the same One.
    Before me no God was formed, And after me there has been none.

    Since our Creator, Jehovah God (the One), did not create any other gods, before Himself or after Himself, where did all those gods that have been worshipped down through the centuries come from?

    Is it possible that Satan and man created them?

    What do all you intelligent people think?
  2. Joined
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    26 Aug '16 08:02
    Well, that was just a thought.
    I'm off to bed.
    I will check tomorrow to see what you all think.
  3. Standard membersonship
    the corrected one.
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    26 Aug '16 08:341 edit
    Originally posted by roigam
    Deuteronomy 32:17 says the nations sacrificed to demonic spirits which were "no gods"

    "They sacrificed to demons, to those who were no gods, To gods they did not know,

    To new ones who had recently come up, Before whom you fathers had not shuddered." (Deut. 32:17) RcV


    It is clear here that the more recent "gods" were demons and in fact "no gods". Right?

    Of course if Isaiah 43:10 says that God created no god either before or after Him then that obliterates Arian and Jehovah Witness doctrine that the Word in John 1:1 was "a god" or "a God" OTHER than Jehovah. For neither before nor Jehovah nor after Jehovah was ANY god formed.

    The polytheism of the JWs is refuted at this point precisely.

    " ... Before Me there was no God formed, Neither will there be any after Me.

    I, even I, am Jehovah; And there is no Savior besides Me." (v.10b.11)


    The demons are disembodied evil spirits [not fallen angels] from an ancient age anterior to Adam. in their plight to completely deceive man and derail God's economy, the demons hover around idols and imitate supernatural deities. it is terrible to be deceived by demons.

    They also can adopt to the modern age and adjust their deception to match the current state and aspirations of culture.


    Although the Bible uses terms like "strange gods" or "gods" or "idols" it is clear that to the elect there is no God but one -

    " Yet to us there is one God, the Father, out from whom are all things, and we are unto Him and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we are through Him." (1 Cor. 8:6)


    The "us" is the regenerated Christians as constituents of the church. The "us" has received the Triune God to indwell them.

    "But you are not in the flesh, but in the [human regenerated] spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet is anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him.

    But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the
    [human regenerated] [divine] spirit is life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus Christ from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give [divine] life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (Romans 8:9-11)


    We need then to receive God into our innermost spiritual being through regeneration.
  4. Standard memberapathist
    looking for loot
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    26 Aug '16 09:02
    Scripture is garbage. Lilith told me that. The horned god of the hunt (older than agriculture!) told me that. Why should a thinking person care much what adherents of the ancient Hebrew war god have to say.
  5. Joined
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    26 Aug '16 18:27
    Originally posted by sonship
    [b]Deuteronomy 32:17 says the nations sacrificed to demonic spirits which were "no gods"

    "They sacrificed to demons, to those who were no gods, To gods they did not know,

    To new ones who had recently come up, Before whom you fathers had not shuddered." (Deut. 32:17) RcV


    It is clear her ...[text shortened]... /quote]

    We need then to receive God into our innermost spiritual being through regeneration.[/b]
    Oh, you are a tricky one.
    Isa 43:10b states clearly that Jehovah and Jesus are 2(two) separate individuals.
    Also 1co 8:6 states clearly that Jehovah God, the Father, and Jesus Christ, the Lord,
    are 2(two) separate individuals.
    Neither Scripture indicates a third entity, only 2(two), so no trinity. There it is!
    That's why the word trinity is not in the Bible.
    The Judeo-Christian belief is monotheistic.
    The idea of the trinity is pagan from the Greeks through Plato and his philosophical
    idea of a "demiurge".
    That along with the Jewish philosopher Philo confusing Plato's demiurge with the True
    God's representative Jesus Christ, the Word, along with the politician Constantine's
    desire to unify the pagan Nations under his rulership is what produced the trinity.
    It is a combination of Satan's and man's skewed imagination.

    It is not in God's Word of truth, the Bible.
    Jehovah did not create any gods before or after His existence.
    There are no real gods except Jehovah, only things people worship as gods.
    People have been deluded and misled for centuries.
    (2 Corinthians 4:4) among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.
    Jesus is the image of God. An image of something is not the thing itself.
  6. Joined
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    26 Aug '16 18:30
    Originally posted by apathist
    Scripture is garbage. Lilith told me that. The horned god of the hunt (older than agriculture!) told me that. Why should a thinking person care much what adherents of the ancient Hebrew war god have to say.
    A thinking person might think about how he is going to escape death, do you think?
  7. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    26 Aug '16 18:35
    Originally posted by roigam
    A thinking person might think about how he is going to escape death, do you think?
    A man, thinking or otherwise,can not escape death, or the taxman.
  8. Standard membersonship
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    26 Aug '16 18:39
    Originally posted by apathist
    Scripture is garbage. Lilith told me that. The horned god of the hunt (older than agriculture!) told me that. Why should a thinking person care much what adherents of the ancient Hebrew war god have to say.
    Yuk, Yuk!

    All you need now is a little tin cup, a funny hat, and someone beside you cranking music from a hurdy gurdy machine.
  9. Joined
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    26 Aug '16 19:091 edit
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    A man, thinking or otherwise,can not escape death, or the taxman.
    It's too bad the horned god you ascribe to can offer nothing better.
    The True God, Jehovah, offers everlasting life through His son Christ Jesus.
    He just wants us to come to an accurate knowledge of the truth.
    Knowledge of the true God and the one He sent forth means everlasting life.

    The taxman is a different story. 😉
  10. Standard membersonship
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    26 Aug '16 19:494 edits
    Originally posted by roigam
    Oh, you are a tricky one.


    What tricks ??
    There are no "tricks" here in my explanation.


    Isa 43:10b states clearly that Jehovah and Jesus are 2(two) separate individuals.


    I don;'t see that in Isaiah 43:10 at all. In fact I don't see Jesus even mentioned. It has Jehovah God saying that there is no Savior besides HImself. No tricks there.

    " ... I, even I, am Jehovah; and there is no Savior besides Me."


    Did YOU see "Jesus" mentioned there ??


    Also 1co 8:6 states clearly that Jehovah God, the Father, and Jesus Christ, the Lord,
    are 2(two) separate individuals.


    This is closer to what I would agree with. Yes, it does say there is one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ. But that they are "SEPARATE" is your interpretation. In light of the rest of the New Testament I would say the Father and "the Lord Jesus" are DISTINCT but not separated.

    There is no "trick" here either. There is recognition that Christ is with God and is God as the Word is distinct from God and with God, yet mysteriously God. (John 1:1)


    Neither Scripture indicates a third entity, only 2(two), so no trinity. There it is!


    I agree that the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in Isaiah 43:10,11.
    I agree that the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in Second Corinthians 8:6.

    But in Romans 8:9-11 The INDWELLING Spirit of God is interchangeably called Christ . Don't waste your breath trying to deny it.

    The Spirit of God is interchanged with The Spirit of Christ which is in turn interchanged with Christ which is also interchanged with the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead.".

    Here you clearly get the Triune God for man's experience of God's INDWELLING. And the believers can detect no difference, no separation, no division. The Spirit of God is Christ.

    Furthermore in the second Corinthians letter in chapter 3 to [b]chapter 3 the word of God says that "the Lord IS ... the Spirit".

    "And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom" (2 Cor. 3:17)


    That would explain why the titles "the Spirit of Christ" is used interchangeably with "Christ". And no experiential separation can be detected by the man in whom the Holy Spirit indwells.

    No tricks here, just quotation and personal confirming experience.

    But there is more. The Father is also said to indwell the believers in Christ. So not only is Christ in them but the Father is in them. And we can hardly tell any separation between the Father and the Son.

    " One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." ( Eph. 4:6)
  11. Standard membersonship
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    26 Aug '16 19:512 edits

    That's why the word trinity is not in the Bible.


    I agree that the word "trinity" is not in the Bible.

    Do you agree that the title "the Spirit of God" is used interchangeably with "Christ" ? You should.

    I have received Christ into the spiritual kernel of my being.
    This indwelling "Christ" is also "the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead"

    Put another way, I have received Christ into my being. I really have. This Christ in my innermost spiritual being is also the one Father who is over all, and through all, and IN ALL of the members of the church.


    The Judeo-Christian belief is monotheistic.


    I agree. I acknowledge that there is one God.
    When I opened my heart and received Jesus Christ into my by faith the Spirit of God was Christ Who entered into my spirit. There is distinction but there is no separation.

    Out of the mouth of the Son of God it was said that He and His Father as the divine "We" would come to make an abode with His lovers.

    " Jesus answered and said, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)


    This word has been fulfilled in me as indwelling me is at one time "the Spirit of God" Who is "the Spirit of Christ" Who is "Christ" Who mysteriously is ALSO " the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead." .

    "Triune" God is a very useful expression even though it is not found in the Bible.


    The idea of the trinity is pagan from the Greeks through Plato and his philosophical
    idea of a "demiurge".


    This is hype. Plato didn't teach anything like John 14:23.

    John may have been trying to get the ear of some Greek influenced people when he wrote "In the beginning was the Word ... etc". That does not mean John's teaching was inspired by Greek philosophers. He was just trying to utter a term Logos that would be familiar to Greek philosophy.

    I don't need to go off and master many Greek philosophies or pagan religions. I know that the night I received Jesus Christ, the Father was mine. The night I called on the Lord Jesus, God became real to me.

    I needed then nor need now many experts in pagan religion or Greek philosophy to explain to me their beliefs. I know that "Christ" in me was "the Spirit of God" and "the Savior".

    Latter the term "Triune God" made perfect sense to me.


    That along with the Jewish philosopher Philo confusing Plato's demiurge with the True
    God's representative Jesus Christ, the Word, along with the politician Constantine's
    desire to unify the pagan Nations under his rulership is what produced the trinity.
    It is a combination of Satan's and man's skewed imagination.


    Hype. Hype to justify an antichrist spirit wanting to make the Son of God Michael the angel.

    Jesus said that we who believe in Him would be HIS witnesses.

    " But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, AND YOU SHALL BE MY WITNESSES ... " (See Acts 1:8)


    So if you really want to be a witness of Jehovah, ie. a true Jehovah's witness, you have to receive Jesus Christ the Son of God into your being and the Holy Spirit. Then you have to bear witness to the fact that God, in Christ, has come to indwell you.
  12. Standard membersonship
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    26 Aug '16 19:533 edits

    It is not in God's Word of truth, the Bible.


    The truth includes 'Romans 8:9-11. The indwelling God is Christ in the lovers of Jesus. Within them the Father and the Son through the Holy Spirit, indwell their innermost spiritual being of the born again.

    You have to believe that Christ can actually make an abode within you by faith - not sentimentally but in reality.

    "That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, ..." (Eph. 3:17)


    When you are forgiven and washed in the blood of Jesus from your sins, Christ can make His home in your innermost being through faith. And He and the Father as the Divine "We" bring the Triune God into your life.

    First you have to come to Him for redemption that your every sin may be washed away in the redeeming blood of Christ. You have to trust in His finished work and have no more any confidence in what you suppose YOU can do to be acceptable to God.


    Jehovah did not create any gods before or after His existence.


    Exactly. So go back to the kingdom hall and tell them that the Word that was with God was not another created God. Mysteriously and profoundly it was the One God.
    Tell your Watchtower teachers that the Word that became flesh (John 1:14) was Jehovah God.

    Then run so that they don't twist your faith away. Open your heart and receive Christ to make His home in your heart through faith.


    There are no real gods except Jehovah, only things people worship as gods.
    People have been deluded and misled for centuries.


    The JWs are deluded to believe and teach that the Logos was another created God. The Watchtower teachers are deluded to believe and teach that Christ is the angel Michael.

    These are lies. These are doctrines of demons.
    Their hold on people this deceived can be like chains.
    Save yourself and receive the Lord Jesus into your heart.


    (2 Corinthians 4:4) among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.


    What that passage says going on to verse 6, is about "the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ". God became a man .The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us.

    Go on to verse 6 -

    "Because the God who said, Out of darkness light shall shine, is the One who shined in our hearts to illuminate the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." (2 Cor. 4:6)



    Jesus is the image of God. An image of something is not the thing itself.


    But John also does not say that "the Word was" " the image of God." But he says "And the Word was God".

    Yes, He is the image of the invisible God.
    And Yes, He is God. besides Him there is no Savior.
    You should just say "Amen" to both proclamations.
  13. Joined
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    26 Aug '16 20:51
    Originally posted by sonship

    It is not in God's Word of truth, the Bible.


    The [b] truth
    includes 'Romans 8:9-11. The indwelling God is Christ in the lovers of Jesus. Within them the Father and the Son through the Holy Spirit, indwell their innermost spiritual being of the born again.

    You have to believe that Christ can actually make an abode withi ...[text shortened]... God. besides Him there is no Savior.
    You should just say "Amen" to both proclamations.[/b]
    Too many words.

    Is not our savior Jesus Christ?
    (Acts 4:12) Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”

    That is the savior that Jehovah provided.
    So, Isa 43:10b,11 is again clearly talking about 2 individuals.

    How can you win a point by flooding someone with words?
    Occam's razor says the simplest answer is the best.
    Convoluted reasonings obsfucate.
    You are not a whirling dervish, are you?
    If you are, be careful, the Bible will win you over!
  14. Standard membersonship
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    26 Aug '16 22:133 edits
    Originally posted by roigam
    Too many words.


    Lazy. Are you sure you want to be a Bible student ? I mean 66 books and all.
    Maybe you should just get your theology from a couple of car bumper stickers.


    Is not our savior Jesus Christ?


    I never said He wasn't the Savior.
    And Jehovah God is the Savior according to your Isaiah 43:10 passage.

    But you've probably dozed off to sleep by now.


    (Acts 4:12) Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”


    That's right. God is incarnated as Jesus Christ. So there is no other Savior but Jehovah God.


    That is the savior that Jehovah provided.
    So, Isa 43:10b,11 is again clearly talking about 2 individuals.


    Isaiah 43:10 is talking about one God.


    How can you win a point by flooding someone with words?


    A lazy person I do not expect to be able to teach anything.
    Of course it is a dishonest selective lazinesss most likely.


    Occam's razor says the simplest answer is the best.


    Go read First Corinthians about the preaching of foolishness. You just quoted the book. Go back and read the whole thing someday.

    I mean read it without Watchtower standing over you.
    While you opt for worldly philosophy out of one side of your mouth and accuse me of following Plato out the other, you display hypocrisy.

    Go learn what this means.

    " For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know God. God was well pleased through the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe." ( 1 Cor. 1:21)


    I'm not chasing after Plato. You seem to be chasing after Occam.


    Convoluted reasonings obsfucate.
    You are not a whirling dervish, are you?
    If you are, be careful, the Bible will win you over!


    Tell us more about Occam's Razor since you're obviously more impressed with worldly philosophy then the Word of God.

    Its pitiful what the so-called "faithful and prudent servant" does to you JWs to turn you against the Bible.
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    27 Aug '16 06:59
    Originally posted by roigam
    Well, that was just a thought.
    I'm off to bed.
    I will check tomorrow to see what you all think.
    Do you intend ever replying to my posts to you in the "dependencies for Christian salvation" thread?
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