Islam: What is your problem

Originally posted by sumydid
I have no problem when it comes to the vast majority of Muslims who--thankfully--reject the violent teachings and commands within the Quran. It's the Orthodox, radical Muslims that are the problem.

And the reason they are made the subjects of news programs across the world on a daily basis is because the news programs focus mainly on tragedy and shocking ...[text shortened]... cent bystanders at busy intersections, so, Christians and Hindus don't get the news coverage.

Yours is an argument along the lines of "I'm not a racist but..." I don't suppose that it mattered which section of the Qu'ran was preferred by the Bosnian Muslims while they were brutalised at the hands of Serbian nationalists and it was a damnably long time before liberal minded Clinton thought it important to American interests to get involved. I don't think such fine distinctions are made today (and yesterday and the day before that) in Arizona by American cowboys rendering Pakistani families into "bugsplat." Suicide bombing? - I think not. They do not even miss their lunch breaks but they sure seem to miss their targets quite a lot.

When the IRA were bombing their neighbours in Ulster, they commonly forced cab drivers to drive live bombs to their targets, while holding guns to the heads of their family. And as good Catholics, they were rather weak on knowing their Qu'ran altogether. What is decent about war or about the tactics of terrorists? Nothing and it has naff all to do with their religion. Anymore than the endless killing of muslims by the US has anything to do with Christianity or any other values for that matter. They are dehumanised aliens to the American voter and your media keeps things that way. Islamaphobia is part of the ideological cover for American imperialism and militarism.

You have a touching faith in your media. What they show or omit and the way in which they frame debate is entirely ideological. They may be free of government censorship but hardly free of corporate control and the political agendas of their unaccountable owners. Tell me more about the liberal, open minded American mass media. The government does not control them because they control the government - you will not get a candidate into the public eye without media approval. The real selection of candidates begins long before the public get their choices.

I don't suppose you do get a lot of coverage of Hindu violence against Muslims in India either. Racism has no borders. We construct our hate figures as we go along to fit our requirements. What you are saying reduces down to saying you find "those people" horrible and alien. They probably don't even have decent plumbing and their teeth are awful of course.

Originally posted by Dasa
This post is for finnegan [excuse the error]

Prubhupada is a pure devotee of God and no one knows the mind of the pure devotee because he is on the trancendental platform - and whilst his body is in this world - his consciousness is NOT because it is always in the spiritual consciousness.

He ws a master diplomat.

Being a master diplomat he would ...[text shortened]... rson could answer the question.

I may take a day or so to get back to this post as I am busy.

The reference to false religion is not mine. It comes from people like you and RJ Hinds. I spend my time pointing out that this claim is nonsensical and evasive, employed to get around inconvenient obstacles such as evidence. I am an atheist which makes me a fairly poor source for insight into the "True" religion I would imagine. It is not my job to demonstrate a "True Religion" but the job of those making the claim.

However it appears that you are claiming that you have an inside track on the mind of Prubhupada. His words do not mean what words mean after all. When they do not suit your case, they are mysteriously transformed into "diplomacy" or sort of trick words that mean the opposite. "Diplomat" comes very close to plain "liar" in many people's thinking.

You are saying - do not trust the words of Prubhupada - trust Dasa instead.

Originally posted by Dasa
This post is for finnegan [excuse the error]

Prubhupada is a pure devotee of God and no one knows the mind of the pure devotee because he is on the trancendental platform - and whilst his body is in this world - his consciousness is NOT because it is always in the spiritual consciousness.

He ws a master diplomat.

Being a master diplomat he would ...[text shortened]... rson could answer the question.

I may take a day or so to get back to this post as I am busy.

I may take a day or so to get back to this post as I am busy. - dasa

such is the life of a full time racist nut-case. got to take the hems up on your kkk uniform. take the swastika flag to the dry cleaners, set fire to the local mosque, shave your head, listend to your favorite right wing shock jock on the radio, polish your favorite nazi memorabilia .....ohh so many racist things to do, not enough time to do them.

Originally posted by finnegan
The reference to false religion is not mine. It comes from people like you and RJ Hinds. I spend my time pointing out that this claim is nonsensical and evasive, employed to get around inconvenient obstacles such as evidence. I am an atheist which makes me a fairly poor source for insight into the "True" religion I would imagine. It is not my job to demonst ...[text shortened]... king.

You are saying - do not trust the words of Prubhupada - trust Dasa instead.

I have just finished informing you that know one knows the mind of the pure devotee - and you immediately tell me I have an inside track on what Prubhupada is thinking.

Now please tell the forum what Prubhupad has said about meat eating and animal slaughter.......because the information you will receive about that - will also tell you what Prubhpada has not said about Islam.

I cannot discuss with you if you are going to be dishonest - as your comments are revealing.

Atheism is synonymous with dishonesty because to be an atheist one has to accept that his existence has come from a random explosion...........and from that explosion has come galaxies and suns and the perfect laws of physics and elephants and cows and birds and whales and human beings and food and trees and sweet smelling flowers etc. [ Absolutely absurd and therefore dishonest}

Dear finnegan - It is not possible for any person to explain our existence honestly from the perspective of the atheistic viewpoint................ABSOLUTEY IMPOSSIBLE without lying and cheating and fabricating and speculating..

So now that you have revealed that you are a person who has no problem with dishonesty how can I trust anything you have to say about Islam.

It's impossible to discuss with dishonest people because they never stand corrected - and then therefore the discussion can never go forward. {its very annoying and I have had to stop many discussions for this reason alone}

Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b]I may take a day or so to get back to this post as I am busy. - dasa

such is the life of a full time racist nut-case. got to take the hems up on your kkk uniform. take the swastika flag to the dry cleaners, set fire to the local mosque, shave your head, listend to your favorite right wing shock jock on the radio, polish your favorite nazi memorabilia .....ohh so many racist things to do, not enough time to do them.[/b]

Dear sir...........you are a perfect example of someone who has been exposed and defeated.

You have nothing to contribute.

And your comments have revealed this.

Originally posted by Dasa
I have just finished informing you that know one knows the mind of the pure devotee - and you immediately tell me I have an inside track on what Prubhupada is thinking.

Now please tell the forum what Prubhupad has said about meat eating and animal slaughter.......because the information you will receive about that - will also tell you what Prubhpada has not ...[text shortened]... go forward. {its very annoying and I have had to stop many discussions for this reason alone}

What Prubhupad has not said about Islam would doubtless fill an encyclopedia of many volumes. What he has said about Islam I have quoted.

You do not show that I am dishonest. Instead you announce that all atheists are dishonest, I am an atheist, and therefore I must be dishonest. However, if you feel that syllogism is sufficient, and many would agree with it, including some on this forum, it remains a fallacy known as ad hominem. (Look it up). It does not constitute a refutation of the content of my posts.

I am not looking to reach agreement with you. I am not looking for your approval. I am contributing to the forum a view that is contrary to the one you present and supporting my counter-arguments with evidence. The test is not if you are persuaded, but if others on the forum are persuaded. I do not think you will confuse me with someone that is looking to become popular here.

If you were to find me so annoying that you abandoned your racist posting on the forum, I would be delighted. By all means walk away. Personally, I would favour having you banned.

lets see you intellectually defend this Mr Islamophile,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19780692

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
lets see you intellectually defend this Mr Islamophile,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19780692

Moslem fanatics in Bangladesh getting violent over a probably false claim of burning a copy of the Koran are not a pleasant sight. It can be compared with similar events in Pakistan. The implosion of society in the region is not unconnected to a general sense, based on reality as they experience it, that Islam is under attack and that Islamic militants are defending the culture as well as the faith of the people. They are in reality fascists taking advantage of a volatile situation, but what is it that you have to offer to these people beyond a racist slur?

Fascism takes a form that works in each nation. For example, American fascism is promoted through rather innovative, modern and fundamentalist versions of evangelical Christianity and quite a lot - a minority I hope - of Americans seem incredibly susceptible to their irrational, anti democratic blandishments. I deplore fascism in all its manifestations. We have seen its power too clearly and ought to fear its return.

To describe me as an Islamophile is quite a compliment for an atheist like myself. It suggests that I might be managing to lift myself out of the bigotry and violent intolerance that surrounds me and managing to make some kind of case for secular values which are genuinely respectful of diverse value systems and cultures. If I can make a case for Islam without being seduced into any religious affiliation, then I am apparently doing my homework quite well and maintaining a rational mindset. It would be even more of a compliment if it came from a muslim of course.

Of course, to a bigot like yourself, this would be unwelcome. OMG you would hate to be labelled in that way.

An art that ought to be central to our humanity is the capacity for empathy with the other person. You have to work at it but the capacity is there in everyone. So is the capacity to dehumanise whole groups and to abandon all concern for their human rights. That I am afraid is the road of the narcissist and you seem far gone along that road.

Originally posted by finnegan
Moslem fanatics in Bangladesh getting violent over a probably false claim of burning a copy of the Koran are not a pleasant sight. It can be compared with similar events in Pakistan. The implosion of society in the region is not unconnected to a general sense, based on reality as they experience it, that Islam is under attack and that Islamic militants are ...[text shortened]... an rights. That I am afraid is the road of the narcissist and you seem far gone along that road.

More pretentious jive talk than i care to mention, you haver on about the implosion
of society, lol, term it a reality, tell us how long you lived in Bangladesh so that you
know what is real and what is not real? After all you base your 'observations', on
'experience'. Do you often project your own perceptions as a reality for other
people? Racist slur?? again can you produce the phrase where i have racially
slurred anyone? No, then clearly you are becoming emotive as your own position is
being challenged and like the fascists that you mention and like your mortal enemy
Dasa resort to the last bastion of the desperate, hate speech, shall we add hypocrisy
to your now growing list of endearing qualities? how you equate religion and race as
being synonymous again is perhaps a reflection of your inability to differentiate
between what are not very subtle differences as clearly a particular religious
disposition may transcend nationality and race and may have in fact no tangible
correlation to a particular ethnicity. Thus your assertions of racism from the very
beginning are seriously flawed.

Like all those who are seeking to establish their own criteria as some kind of self
certified truth, its comes to me as no surprise that your egocentricities should warm
to that which seeks to elevate itself above others in some kind of all encompassing,
all inclusive megalith to your secular liberal vision, a delusion. Do you seriously
need a badge to wear in order to identify yourself? Oh well! It appears to me that
you are reminiscent of Pyle, the quiet American in Graham Greenes novel, filled with
ideological vision, blissfully unaware of realities because of your adherence to some
academic ideology, everything must and can be subject to rationality and it becomes
more bull than a herd of Texan longhorns.

If you had simply stated, the actions of this barbarous act were the consequence of
Islam being manipulated for the sole purpose of looting and robbery, an act
perpetrated by Muslims on an innocent minority then fine, i could have stomached it,
but you seem unable to produce any condemnation and instead seek to somehow
find justification for their actions with vague references to American fascism, spew!
and then to top it all off with the secular liberalists favourite, that maraschino cherry
of hate speech, 'you are a bigot'. No i don't resent it, in fact i find it rather amusing
although somewhat pathetic in the original sense of the word.

Sure talk about humanity and empathy and tolerance and blind yourself to the fact
that Islam itself has produced the conditions for acts like this to occur because of its
intolerance to criticism in any form, the basis of which is fear and insecurity.

The post that was quoted here has been removed

Yes Gandhi, i remember that vaguely, it was a young women suicide bomber, they
caught the others because a camera with a portraiture of them together survived.

Originally posted by finnegan
I am sickened by the level of Islamaphobia expressed by some contributors in this forum. This material might perhaps permit a more interesting debate, since each of the seven points offers a basis for debate that might get beyond the racist simplicities of other threads.

The historian Timothy Garton-Ash writes principally about geopolitics and the ...[text shortened]... demonises the traditions of the other.

http://www.insted.co.uk/anti-muslim-racism.pdf

Good job the Christian's here don't as easily take offence to mass of the Christianaphobia there is here, or the forum would be full of "I'm sickened by..." threads. Also, Islam is not a "race" it's a religion so the term "racism" is not appropriate nor applicable.

Originally posted by divegeester
Good job the Christian's here don't as easily take offence to mass of the Christianaphobia there is here, or the forum would be full of "I'm sickened by..." threads. Also, Islam is not a "race" it's a religion so the term "racism" is not appropriate nor applicable.

That's been answered before. Just google "Islamaphobia is not racism" or similar and give me a rest.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
More pretentious jive talk than i care to mention, you haver on about the implosion
of society, lol, term it a reality, tell us how long you lived in Bangladesh so that you
know what is real and what is not real? After all you base your 'observations', on
'experience'. Do you often project your own perceptions as a reality for other
people? ...[text shortened]... of its
intolerance to criticism in any form, the basis of which is fear and insecurity.

Islamaphobia and racism I have clarified before. Just google the phrase as you are boring me.

If you think I have not condemned violence then your reading skills are less even than I thought. I don't see why I need bother to write down to your restricted capabilities.

The Quiet American is an excellent novel and says a great deal about American foreign policy. It is still relevant. Like any novel, it is always interesting how different people can read the same text and experience very different messages.

Various ad hominem jibes tell me that you dislike what I say but do not refute what I say.

Sure talk about humanity and empathy and tolerance and blind yourself to the fact that Islam itself has produced the conditions for acts like this to occur because of its intolerance to criticism in any form, the basis of which is fear and insecurity.

Also answered in my earlier posts and neatly captures your position. If your argument is valid, then the argument that Christianity is an intolerant and violent poison in human life is valid on the same grounds. It would be depressingly easy to string together the examples we need to make your argument against Christianity.

Originally posted by finnegan
Islamaphobia and racism I have clarified before. Just google the phrase as you are boring me.

If you think I have not condemned violence then your reading skills are less even than I thought. I don't see why I need bother to write down to your restricted capabilities.

The Quiet American is an excellent novel and says a great deal about American fore ...[text shortened]... singly easy to string together the examples we need to make your argument against Christianity.

I have produced my own reasons why its a nonsense, the product of my own mind,
but sure, feel free to ignore them as you have consistently done and no your
references to Christianity will ultimately fail because unlike Islam it has produced an
environment which has fomented liberty. I can easily cite Koranic verses which
state that the apostate is to be put to death, enemies despoiled, how will you
conjure up the same of Christianity, that is correct, you cannot, for regardless of the
actions of professed christians, the core teaching itself is one of self sacrifice for the
benefit of others, the same cannot be found within the teaching of Islam, for its
tenets are a series of commands which are absolutes, unable to be weighed in the
balance by the conscience in the form of far reaching principles, because by nature
they are laws and absolute. So go ahead, i dare you, make the comparison, but
you'll be sowwy! and where is your condemnation of the violence, please forgive
me but i couldn't find it anywhere.