It's all a mystery really.....

Originally posted by knightmeister
So we are back to this semantics yet again -most people would say that, in everyday English, that if there is no unknown explanation there to discover then that means there is no mystery

----------hammy-------------

You make me laugh! I can't let you get away with that can I?

Look at your sentence and you will see it's you that is playing se they are the way they are. Thus they are even more mysterious than dark matter.

…."if there is no unknown explanation there to discover then that means there is no mystery" -----hammy

Could be much more simply TRANSLATED as " if there is no possible way of explaining something then it is a mystery"
..… (my emphasis)

But one does NOT logically TRANSLATE into the other!

i.e. the proposition;

(1) "if there is no unknown explanation there to discover then that means there is no mystery"

contrary to what you imply here, does NOT logically imply the proposition:

(2) "if there is no possible way of explaining something then it is a mystery"

-And for me to logically prove that your conclusion (2) does NOT logically follow from your premise (1) is for me to just give ONE example of where (1) and (2) cannot be simultaneously true -and that example is brute facts:
According to (1) brute facts are NOT a mystery because there is no unknown explanation there to discover and yet according to (2) brute facts ARE a mystery because there is no possible way of ‘explaining’ them. Therefore, propositions (1) and (2) logically contradict each other when it comes to brute facts therefore, contrary to what you said, (1) does NOT logically TRANSLATE into (2) as you said.

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
[b]…."if there is no unknown explanation there to discover then that means there is no mystery" -----hammy

Could be much more simply TRANSLATED as " if there is no possible way of explaining something then it is a mystery"
..… (my emphasis)

But one does NOT logically TRANSLATE into the other!

i.e. the proposition;

(1) "if there is ...[text shortened]... efore, contrary to what you said, (1) does NOT logically TRANSLATE into (2) as you said.[/b]

Ok, let's test this. Let's say that the laws of physics are a brute fact.

Explain them. Tell me why they are that way. Can you do it?

If you can't then their existence remains a mystery.

Does it matter why it can't be explained?

For me the fact that anything exists at all is kind of mysterious. If we accept that we can also never reach a final explanation that will tie everything up - that's even more mysterious.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Ok, let's test this. Let's say that the laws of physics are a brute fact.

Explain them. Tell me why they are that way. Can you do it?

If you can't then their existence remains a mystery.

Does it matter why it can't be explained?

For me the fact that anything exists at all is kind of mysterious. If we accept that we can also never reach a final explanation that will tie everything up - that's even more mysterious.

….Does it matter why it can't be explained?

..…

when it comes to categorising whether it is a mystery -yes.

Originally posted by knightmeister
If we accept that we can also never reach a final explanation that will tie everything up - that's even more mysterious.

And that is where we seem to differ. I don't use the word 'mysterious' for things who's explanation I have accepted is unobtainable. To me it implies an interest in the explanation, a desire to discover. If you know and accept that there isn't an explanation then you should not have a desire to find it.

Originally posted by twhitehead
And that is where we seem to differ. I don't use the word 'mysterious' for things who's explanation I have accepted is unobtainable. To me it implies an interest in the explanation, a desire to discover. If you know and accept that there isn't an explanation then you should not have a desire to find it.

But one's desire is irrelevant. If I do not desire an explanation for something that does indeed have one that does not make it inexplicable . If I desire for something to be possible that is impossible it's still impossible.

Originally posted by knightmeister
But one's desire is irrelevant.

But I pointed out that in my use of the word 'mystery' it is relevant. I am sorry, but that is something you simply cannot dispute as you do not define what I think or how I choose to use a word.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But I pointed out that in my use of the word 'mystery' it is relevant. I am sorry, but that is something you simply cannot dispute as you do not define what I think or how I choose to use a word.

Agreed. Mystery is a mysterious word , it can be interpreted in different ways.

Let's say that the existence of a brute fact that has no explanation is just fascínating then? Intriguing?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Agreed. Mystery is a mysterious word , it can be interpreted in different ways.

Let's say that the existence of a brute fact that has no explanation is just fascínating then? Intriguing?

-apparently only to you think this.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Let's say that the existence of a brute fact that has no explanation is just fascínating then? Intriguing?

I found it interesting when I first realized it. However you showed in the very first post of this thread and I think everyone agreed with you that it is a fairly trivial result if you think about the universe.
I certainly don't find it nearly as fascinating or intriguing as you seem to nor do I understand why it is so important to you that others should.
You seem to have this odd idea that finding a brute fact mysterious somehow supports theism but you are yet to tell us what the connection if any actually is. You seem to to think indifference to brute fact is atheistic in nature.

If anything I think the realization that brute facts exists is rather anti-theistic as much of theism is about hiding brute facts in the illusion of recursion.

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
-apparently only to you think this.

Sorry , misprint: delete the word “to”

What if everything is an illusion and nothing exists? In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet.


--Woody Allen

The corollary to the previous post is:

What if nothing exists and we're all in somebody's dream? Or what's worse, what if only that fat guy who posted third exists?

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
-apparently only to you think this.

I doubt that I'm the only one who finds existence intriguing. I think the day it stops being intriguing then you might as well top yourself. The fact that at some level existence just "IS" - is intriguing and fascinating. Of course , many have a vested interest in de-mystifying existence in order to make it fit the bland humdrum mechanistic vision they have of life where all can be explained by science.

I think it's great that there will always be at least one brute fact that will always evade explanation and will remain unfathomable by any rationality. I think it's the fact that you know this somehwere inside that makes you want to de-mystify it.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I doubt that I'm the only one who finds existence intriguing. I think the day it stops being intriguing then you might as well top yourself. The fact that at some level existence just "IS" - is intriguing and fascinating. Of course , many have a vested interest in de-mystifying existence in order to make it fit the bland humdrum mechanistic vision they ...[text shortened]... ink it's the fact that you know this somehwere inside that makes you want to de-mystify it.

….I doubt that I'm the only one who finds existence intriguing
..…

I didn’t quite suggested EXACTLY that vague statement you imply above;
I suggesting that apparently only you find specifically the existence of BRUTE FACTS intriguing -can you give me an example of somebody else that finds specifically the existence of BRUTE FACTS intriguing?

Originally posted by knightmeister
I doubt that I'm the only one who finds existence intriguing. I think the day it stops being intriguing then you might as well top yourself. The fact that at some level existence just "IS" - is intriguing and fascinating. Of course , many have a vested interest in de-mystifying existence in order to make it fit the bland humdrum mechanistic vision they ...[text shortened]... ink it's the fact that you know this somehwere inside that makes you want to de-mystify it.

Finally I get what this whole thread was really about. You think that science strips away too much of the mystery of life and you are comforted by the fact that at least one mystery isn't going anywhere any time soon. On top of this is a desire to justify your irrational theistic views and fight back against science which to you is stripping away all that irrationality and threatening your delusions.

You have got it all wrong. I find life an the universe just as mysterious and interesting as you do, the difference is that I actually want to know how it works and understand as much as possible about it, and I am secure in my current beliefs. I am not threatened by new knowledge or explanations. You would rather remain deluded.