1. Joined
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    22 Apr '11 23:031 edit
    Jesus beginnings: His prehuman existance.

    The person who became known as Jesus Christ did not begin life here on earth. He himself spoke of his prehuman heavenly life. (Joh 3:13; 6:38, 62; 8:23, 42, 58) John 1:1, 2 gives the heavenly name of the one who became Jesus, saying: “In the beginning the Word [Gr., Logos] was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god [“was divine,” AT; Mo; or “of divine being,” Böhmer; Stage (both German)]. This one was in the beginning with God.” Since Jehovah is eternal and had no beginning (Ps 90:2; Re 15:3), the Word’s being with God from “the beginning” must here refer to the beginning of Jehovah’s creative works. This is confirmed by other texts identifying Jesus as “the firstborn of all creation,” “the beginning of the creation by God.” (Col 1:15; Re 1:1; 3:14) Thus the Scriptures identify the Word (Jesus in his prehuman existence) as God’s first creation, his firstborn Son.

    That Jehovah was truly the Father or Life-Giver to this firstborn Son and, hence, that this Son was actually a creature of God is evident from Jesus’ own statements. He pointed to God as the Source of his life, saying, “I live because of the Father.” According to the context, this meant that his life resulted from or was caused by his Father, even as the gaining of life by dying men would result from their faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice.—Joh 6:56, 57.

    If the estimates of modern-day scientists as to the age of the physical universe are anywhere near correct, Jesus’ existence as a spirit creature began thousands of millions of years prior to the creation of the first human. (Compare Mic 5:2.) This firstborn spirit Son was used by his Father in the creation of all other things. (Joh 1:3; Col 1:16, 17) This would include the millions of other spirit sons of Jehovah God’s heavenly family (Da 7:9, 10; Re 5:11), as well as the physical universe and the creatures originally produced within it. Logically, it was to this firstborn Son that Jehovah said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness.” (Ge 1:26) All these other created things were not only created “through him” but also “for him,” as God’s Firstborn and the “heir of all things.”—Col 1:16; Heb 1:2.
  2. Standard memberfinnegan
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    22 Apr '11 23:09
    Oh dear. The authors of the New Testament really should have consulted a lawyer before putting pen to paper. Divine guidance clearly is not sufficient when dealing with the minds of humans. So many ambiguities and imprecisions leave it wide open to curious diversions.
  3. Joined
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    22 Apr '11 23:24
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Oh dear. The authors of the New Testament really should have consulted a lawyer before putting pen to paper. Divine guidance clearly is not sufficient when dealing with the minds of humans. So many ambiguities and imprecisions leave it wide open to curious diversions.
    Oh my but the Bible is not a curious diversion. It is God's word, not mans.
  4. Standard memberAgerg
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    22 Apr '11 23:26
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Oh my but the Bible is not a curious diversion. It is God's word, not mans.
    I guarantee you, it's man's word ;]
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    22 Apr '11 23:27
    Originally posted by Agerg
    I guarantee you, it's man's word ;]
    I double guarantee it's Gods. I win!!!
  6. Standard memberAgerg
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    22 Apr '11 23:31
    Originally posted by galveston75
    I double guarantee it's Gods. I win!!!
    You denigrate the abilities of your god by insisting that it wrote it itself ;]
  7. Standard memberfinnegan
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    22 Apr '11 23:38
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Oh my but the Bible is not a curious diversion. It is God's word, not mans.
    To be accurate I did not imply that the Bible was a curious diversion. I implied that your post was a curious diversion from the Bible.

    There are many ways to interpret the Bible and though I am an atheist I have read - still got more to read - some stuff on the problem. I do not think I will be in a minority when I suggest that your reading is wild and fanciful.
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    23 Apr '11 00:09
    Originally posted by finnegan
    To be accurate I did not imply that the Bible was a curious diversion. I implied that your post was a curious diversion from the Bible.

    There are many ways to interpret the Bible and though I am an atheist I have read - still got more to read - some stuff on the problem. I do not think I will be in a minority when I suggest that your reading is wild and fanciful.
    Ok..you have your opinion and that's cool.
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    23 Apr '11 00:11
    Originally posted by Agerg
    You denigrate the abilities of your god by insisting that it wrote it itself ;]
    Ok..whatever. But this forum is not about that topic.
  10. Standard memberAgerg
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    23 Apr '11 00:26
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Ok..whatever. But this forum is not about that topic.
    This forum or this thread?
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    23 Apr '11 00:31
    Originally posted by Agerg
    This forum or this thread?
    Excuse me..this thread.
  12. Standard memberRJHinds
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    23 Apr '11 20:03
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Jesus beginnings: His prehuman existance.

    The person who became known as Jesus Christ did not begin life here on earth. He himself spoke of his prehuman heavenly life. (Joh 3:13; 6:38, 62; 8:23, 42, 58) John 1:1, 2 gives the heavenly name of the one who became Jesus, saying: “In the beginning the Word [Gr., Logos] was, and the Word was with God, and ...[text shortened]... ugh him” but also “for him,” as God’s Firstborn and the “heir of all things.”—Col 1:16; Heb 1:2.
    In John 1:1, scholars of the Greek have determined that the word translated
    "was" here is durative, continuing existence. To continue existing at the
    beginning of time is to be eternal by definition. A.T. Robertson indicates that
    while it is not always durative, in most cases it is, and it certainly is in
    John 1:1. The reason why is because it occurs several times in a series of
    statements about the Word none of which is aoristic. Moreover, there is a
    contrast in the Prologue (John 1:1-18) between the imperfect and the
    aorist, which proves beyond question that it is durative in John 1:1. So
    John is teaching that the Word is eternal. That would mean the Word was
    not created. The usual literal translation "and the Word was God" can be
    misunderstood to imply that the Word was the same person as the person
    with whom he existed in the beginning, which would of course be nonsense.
    So some translators prefer to translate "theos" here as "Diety" or "God by
    nature" or some equivalent rendering. In John 1:1 "logos" is the subject
    an'" theos" the predicate, which is indicated by the presence of the article
    with logos and its asbence with theos. This distinction has been explained
    by A.T. Robertson and C.H. Dodd. The significance of "theon" being
    definite is to identify the One spoken of there as a specific person - God
    the Father. If, then, theos were to be definite in the same way that "theon"
    is, it would then be saying that the Word was God the Father. Greek
    grammer calls for the absence of the definite article. The insertion of
    the indefinte article "a" is not called for and would be saying there was two
    rather than one God. Also if the Greek had been written with both having the
    definte article, it would make "logos" and "theos" equivalent and interchangeable,
    so that the Word was the person called "God". Besides making the sentence
    contradictory, this would mean Jesus was the Father, as has already been
    explained. So Jesus, as the Word created all things that were created but He
    was not created himself. He is eternal.
  13. Joined
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    24 Apr '11 02:011 edit
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    In John 1:1, scholars of the Greek have determined that the word translated
    "was" here is durative, continuing existence. To continue existing at the
    beginning of time is to be eternal by definition. A.T. Robertson indicates that
    while it is not always durative, in most cases it is, and it certainly is in
    John 1:1. The reason why is because it occurs gs that were created but He
    was not created himself. He is eternal.
    Hum...

    Colossians 1:15 (Amplified Bible)

    15[Now] He is the exact likeness of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible]; """"He is the Firstborn of all creation."""""

    Revelation 3:14 (New King James Version)

    14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
    ‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, """""the Beginning of the creation of God"""""

    Proverbs 8:22-30 (Amplified Bible)
    22 The Lord """"formed and brought me forth"""" at the beginning of His way, before His acts of old.

    23 I was inaugurated and ordained from everlasting, from the beginning, before ever the earth existed.(A)

    24 When there were no deeps, I was brought forth, when there were no fountains laden with water.

    25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I was brought forth

    26 While as yet He had not made the land or the fields or the first of the dust of the earth.

    27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there; when He drew a circle upon the face of the deep and stretched out the firmament over it,

    28 When He made firm the skies above, when He established the fountains of the deep,

    29 When He gave to the sea its limit and His decree that the waters should not transgress [across the boundaries set by] His command, when He appointed the foundations of the earth--(C)

    30 Then I was beside Him as a master and director of the work; and I was daily His delight, rejoicing before Him always,

    Not only do these scriptures say God formed and produced Jesus before the earth and heavens were formed, this also explains the position he holds when compared tio his Father. He was beside him and before him during this time watching and learning.
    The first obvious question is where is the 3rd being if the Holy Spirit is part of this triad? Did it not watch and learn as Jesus did? Where was it?
    Also if Jesus is all knowing as the trinity expresses that he is, why is he watching and learning about the creations God showed him? Shouldn't he already know what the Father part knows?


    And yes Jesus is eternal but only in relation to the humans on earth. He was here ions before the earth ever existed and he is eternal in the sence he will never die.
    But according to the scriptures above his Father Jehovah created him. That's why he is called " his only begotten son" by his Father and he is referred to as "Son" all thru the scriptures..
    Again if Jesus were God himself and has always existed as God his Father has, why do those scriptures above explain this so differently?
  14. Standard memberRJHinds
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    24 Apr '11 02:17
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Hum...

    Colossians 1:15 (Amplified Bible)

    15[Now] He is the exact likeness of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible]; """"He is the Firstborn of all creation."""""

    Revelation 3:14 (New King James Version)

    14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
    ‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True W ...[text shortened]... has, why do those scriptures above explain this so differently?
    Point out one scripture that you think says Yahweh created Yahshua.
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    24 Apr '11 03:40
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Point out one scripture that you think says Yahweh created Yahshua.
    Uhhhhhh the scriptures I just posted. No names are there but who else are they speaking of other then God Jehovah the Father and Jesus the son? Did you read them?
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