1. Felicific Forest
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    John Chapter 21



    24 Thomas, called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with them when Jesus came.

    25 So the other disciples said to him, "We have seen the Lord." But he said to them, "Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into the nailmarks and put my hand into his side, I will not believe."

    26 Now a week later his disciples were again inside and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you."

    27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here and see my hands, and bring your hand and put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believe."

    28 Thomas answered and said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

    29 Jesus said to him, "Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."

    30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of (his) disciples that are not written in this book.

    31 But these are written that you may (come to) believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through this belief you may have life in his name.



    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PXT.HTM
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    27 Nov '05 16:05
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    John Chapter 21



    24 Thomas, called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with them when Jesus came.

    25 So the other disciples said to him, "We have seen the Lord." But he said to them, "Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into the nailmarks and put my hand into his side, I will not believe."

    26 Now a week later h ...[text shortened]... his belief you may have life in his name.



    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PXT.HTM
    I think you mean John chapter 20.....

    John 20:28
    And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. (KJV)

    1. Jesus never referred to himself as “God” in the absolute sense, so what precedent then did Thomas have for calling Jesus “my God?” The Greek language uses the word theos, (“God” or “god&rdquo😉 with a broader meaning than is customary today. In the Greek language and in the culture of the day, “GOD” (all early manuscripts of the Bible were written in all capital letters) was a descriptive title applied to a range of authorities, including the Roman governor (Acts 12:22), and even the Devil (2 Cor. 4:4). It was used of someone with divine authority. It was not limited to its absolute sense as a personal name for the supreme Deity as we use it today.

    2. Given the language of the time, and given that Jesus did represent the Father and have divine authority, the expression used by Thomas is certainly understandable. On the other hand, to make Thomas say that Jesus was “God,” and thus 1/3 of a triune God, seems incredible. In Concessions of Trinitarians, Michaelis, a Trinitarian, writes:

    I do not affirm that Thomas passed all at once from the extreme of doubt to the highest degree of faith, and acknowledged Christ to be the true God. This appears to me too much for the then existing knowledge of the disciples; and we have no intimation that they recognized the divine nature of Christ before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. I am therefore inclined to understand this expression, which broke out in the height of his astonishment, in a figurative sense, denoting only “whom I shall ever reverence in the highest degree”…Or a person raised from the dead might be regarded as a divinity; for the word God is not always used in the strict doctrinal sense”

    Remember that it was common at that time to call the God’s representatives “God,” and the Old Testament contains quite a few examples. When Jacob wrestled with “God,” it is clear that he was actually wrestling with an angel (Hosea 12:4—For more on that, see the note on Genesis 16:7-13).

    3. There are many Trinitarian authorities who admit that there was no knowledge of Trinitarian doctrine at the time Thomas spoke. For example, if the disciples believed that Jesus was “God” in the sense that many Christians do, they would not have “all fled” just a few days before when he was arrested. The confession of the two disciples walking along the road to Emmaus demonstrated the thoughts of Jesus’ followers at the time. Speaking to the resurrected Christ, whom they mistook as just a traveler, they talked about Jesus. They said Jesus “was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God…and they crucified him; but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel” (Luke 24:19-21). The Bible is clear that these disciples thought Jesus was a “prophet.” Even though some of the apostles realized that Jesus was the Christ, they knew that according to the Old Testament prophecies, the Christ, the anointed of God, was to be a man. There is no evidence from the gospel accounts that Jesus’ disciples believed him to be God, and Thomas, upon seeing the resurrected Christ, was not birthing a new theology in a moment of surprise.

    4. The context of the verse shows that its subject is the fact that Jesus was alive. Only three verses earlier, Thomas had ignored the eyewitness testimony of the other apostles when they told him they had seen the Lord. The resurrection of Christ was such a disputed doctrine that Thomas did not believe it (the other apostles had not either), and thus Jesus’ death would have caused Thomas to doubt that Jesus was who he said he was—the Messiah. Thomas believed Jesus was dead. Thus, he was shocked and astonished when he saw—and was confronted by— Jesus Himself. Thomas, upon being confronted by the living Christ, instantly believed in the resurrection, i.e., that God had raised the man Jesus from the dead, and, given the standard use of “God” in the culture as one with God’s authority, it certainly makes sense that Thomas would proclaim, “My Lord and my God.” There is no mention of the Trinity in the context, and there is no reason to believe that the disciples would have even been aware of such a doctrine. Thomas spoke what he would have known: that the man Jesus who he thought was dead was alive and had divine authority.

    Buzzard, pp. 39-41,61 and 62,136 and 137

    Dana, pp. 23-25

    Farley, pp. 62-64

    Morgridge, pp. 109 and 110 Norton, pp. 299-304

    Snedeker, pp. 271 and 272, 426-430
  3. Felicific Forest
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    27 Nov '05 17:26
    Isaiah 35:4

    4 Say to those whose hearts are frightened: Be strong, fear not! Here is your God, he comes with vindication; With divine recompense he comes to save you.
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    27 Nov '05 19:31
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Isaiah 35:4

    4 Say to those whose hearts are frightened: Be strong, fear not! Here is your God, he comes with vindication; With divine recompense he comes to save you.
    Amen!
  5. Hmmm . . .
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    27 Nov '05 19:342 edits
    As a former Chalcedonian/Trinitarian, I am finding this (and its sister) thread most interesting. I’ll just offer the following for “background,” and then just keep reading with interest—

    The principal name of God in the Hebrew Scriptures is YHVH, meaning “the one who is.” Most scholars assert that it would be pronounced “Yahveh” (or Yahweh), but nobody knows for sure. The first half, “Yah” is feminine in gender; the second half masculine. At some point in Israel’s history (around the time of Ezra, I think) the name became too holy to pronounce—although pronouncing Yah is still acceptable, as in “Hallelu Yah!”

    Liturgically, Jews substituted the word Adonai (lord, sir, mister—in Spanish Bibles, I believe it becomes “el Senor” ) for YHVH. Non-liturgically, they often say Hashem (literally, “the name” ); this is the way it’s rendered in an Orthodox Jewish translation of the scriptures that I have.

    Adonai, in the Greek, is kyrios, with the same basic meanings. Those who interpret this title as a reference (at least in some passages) to Jesus’ divinity, reference that chain from YHVH to kyrios; and would say that Thomas was deliberately connecting “Lord” and “God” in his exclamation. Those who do not, interpret the word as a simple form of respectful address, much like the English “m’lord.”

    Another reference often used is Jesus’ “I am” statements in the Gospel of John, since scholars noted the apparent redundancy of the phrase ego eimi—literally: “I, I am”—as opposed to the normal usage of just eimi. This is taken by some to refer back to God’s statement at the burning bush: “I am that I am,” (eheyeh asher eheyeh). Eheyeh is taken as the first-personal form of Yaweh (this is pretty archaic Hebrew). Non-trinitarians might argue that Jesus was just speaking with emphasis.

    It all really seems to me to come down to the hermeneutical understanding. The argument of the RCC (as well as the Eastern Orthodox churches) is that the trinitarian interpretation goes all the way back through Christian tradition, a tradition that was drawn upon in the formulations of the Nicene Creed (325) and the Definition of Chalcedon (451).

    Now, as I said, I’ll just continue to read this thread with interest…
  6. Standard memberRemoved
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    27 Nov '05 22:18
    I believe that the Heavenly Father alone is God (John 17:3).

    I believe that God (the Father) is the Creator of the heavens and earth.

    He (the Father) is whom I worship as "God.

    I believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16; Rom. 1:4).

    I believe that Jesus is the Messiah prophesied about in the Old Testament Scriptures (Gen. 3:15).

    I believe that he was born in Bethlehem to Mary, a virgin, who was betrothed to Joseph (Matt. 2:1; Luke 1:26-33).

    I believe that through Mary he was directly descended from David according to the flesh, as promised to David (Rom. 1:2-4).

    I believe that God was literally his father, in that God created his (Jesus'😉 life in Mary (Luke 1:35).

    I believe that because of God being his father and Jesus' not being descended from Adam, that he was genetically perfect—"the Last Adam." Jesus achieved behavioral perfection by continually choosing to subject his will to God, his father, all the way to his last breath on the Cross (1 Cor. 15:45; Heb. 5:7).

    I believe that in his earthly ministry Jesus was granted all authority on earth by God to teach, heal, raise the dead, forgive sins, and act on behalf of his Father, whom he represented (Acts 2:22, John 3:34, Heb. 1:3).

    I believe that on the third day after he died, God honored his promise and raised Jesus from the dead and gave him a new body that was and remains incorruptible (Acts 10:39-41; 13:29-31).

    I believe that God also highly exalted Jesus, gave him the "seat" at his right hand (made him His right hand man), made him "Lord," and gave him all authority in heaven and on earth (Phil. 2:9-11; Acts 2:36; Matt. 28:18).

    I believe that God has essentially given Jesus functional equality with Himself, and that only with regard to the throne is God greater than Jesus (Gen. 41:40; Matt. 28:18).

    I believe that Jesus was designated by God to be the mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5).

    I believe that God is "holy" and that He is "spirit," and that He is often referred to as the "Holy Spirit" in Scripture. God is the Giver, and the gift He gives via the new birth is "holy spirit," His divine nature (Isa. 6:3; John 4:24; Acts 2:38).

    I believe that when the Last Adam has completed his mission of restoring the Paradise that the First Adam lost by his disobedience, including the creation of a new heaven and earth, Jesus will again be subject to God (1 Cor. 15:24-28).
  7. Standard memberRemoved
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    27 Nov '05 23:08
    Originally posted by vistesd
    As a former Chalcedonian/Trinitarian, I am finding this (and its sister) thread most interesting. I’ll just offer the following for “background,” and then just keep reading with interest—

    The principal name of God in the Hebrew Scriptures is YHVH, meaning “the one who is.” Most scholars assert that it would be pronounced “Yahveh” (or Yahweh), but nobody ...[text shortened]... ion of Chalcedon (451).

    Now, as I said, I’ll just continue to read this thread with interest…
    I believe the Nicene Creed is about the time the Trinity was formed, about 300-400 AD.


    John 8:58b
    Before Abraham was, I am. (KJV)

    1. Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he was the “I am” (i.e., the Yahweh of the Old Testament), so he must be God. This is just not the case. Saying “I am” does not make a person God. The man born blind that Jesus healed was not claiming to be God, and he said “I am the man,” and the Greek reads exactly like Jesus’ statement, i.e., “I am.” The fact that the exact same phrase is translated two different ways, one as “I am” and the other as “I am the man,” is one reason it is so hard for the average Christian to get the truth from just reading the Bible as it has been translated into English. Most Bible translators are Trinitarian, and their bias appears in various places in their translation, this being a common one. Paul also used the same phrase of himself when he said that he wished all men were as “I am” (Acts 26:29). Thus, we conclude that saying “I am” did not make Paul, the man born blind or Christ into God. C. K. Barrett writes:

    " Ego eimi [“I am”] does not identify Jesus with God, but it does draw attention to him in the strongest possible terms. “I am the one—the one you must look at, and listen to, if you would know God.” "

    2. The phrase “I am” occurs many other times in the New Testament, and is often translated as “I am he” or some equivalent (“I am he”—Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; John 13:19; 18:5, 6 and 8. “It is I”—Matt. 14:27; Mark 6:50; John 6:20. “I am the one I claim to be”—John 8:24 and 28.). It is obvious that these translations are quite correct, and it is interesting that the phrase is translated as “I am” only in John 8:58. If the phrase in John 8:58 were translated “I am he” or “I am the one,” like all the others, it would be easier to see that Christ was speaking of himself as the Messiah of God (as indeed he was), spoken of throughout the Old Testament.

    At the Last Supper, the disciples were trying to find out who would deny the Christ. They said, literally, “Not I am, Lord” (Matt. 26:22 and 25). No one would say that the disciples were trying to deny that they were God because they were using the phrase “Not I am.” The point is this: “I am” was a common way of designating oneself, and it did not mean you were claiming to be God.

    3. The argument is made that because Jesus was “before” Abraham, Jesus must have been God. There is no question that Jesus figuratively “existed” in Abraham’s time. However, he did not actually physically exist as a person; rather he “existed” in the mind of God as God’s plan for the redemption of man. A careful reading of the context of the verse shows that Jesus was speaking of “existing” in God’s foreknowledge. Verse 56 is accurately translated in the King James Version, which says: “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.” This verse says that Abraham “saw” the Day of Christ, which is normally considered by theologians to be the day when Christ conquerors the earth and sets up his kingdom. That would fit with what the book of Hebrews says about Abraham: “For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God” (Heb. 11:10). Abraham looked for a city that is still future, yet the Bible says Abraham “saw” it. In what sense could Abraham have seen something that was future? Abraham “saw” the Day of Christ because God told him it was coming, and Abraham “saw” it by faith. Although Abraham saw the Day of Christ by faith, that day existed in the mind of God long before Abraham. Thus, in the context of God’s plan existing from the beginning, Christ certainly was “before” Abraham. Christ was the plan of God for man’s redemption long before Abraham lived. We are not the only ones who believe that Jesus’ statement does not make him God:

    To say that Jesus is “before” him is not to lift him out of the ranks of humanity but to assert his unconditional precedence. To take such statements at the level of “flesh” so as to infer, as “the Jews” do that, at less than fifty, Jesus is claiming to have lived on this earth before Abraham (8:52 and 57), is to be as crass as Nicodemus who understands rebirth as an old man entering his mother’s womb a second time (3:4). [24]

    4. In order for the Trinitarian argument that Jesus’ “I am” statement in John 8:58 makes him God, his statement must be equivalent with God’s “I am” statement in Exodus 3:14. However, the two statements are very different. While the Greek phrase in John does mean “I am,” the Hebrew phrase in Exodus actually means “to be” or “to become.” In other words God is saying, “I will be what I will be.” Thus the “I am” in Exodus is actually a mistranslation of the Hebrew text, so the fact that Jesus said “I am” did not make him God.

    Buzzard, pp. 93-97

    Dana, Letter 21, pp. 169-171

    Morgridge, pp. 120-21

    Norton, pp. 242-246

    Snedeker, pp. 416-418
  8. Felicific Forest
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    28 Nov '05 10:523 edits
    .

    Checkbaiter, what about all those instances in Scripture where Christ is being worshipped ? Only God is worthy of worship. How do you explain this other than that Jesus Christ is considered in Scripture to be divine ?
  9. Forgotten
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    28 Nov '05 13:56
    jesus never made any candy in the scriptures that i see
    you are all wrong
  10. Standard memberRemoved
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    29 Nov '05 22:11
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    .

    Checkbaiter, what about all those instances in Scripture where Christ is being worshipped ? Only God is worthy of worship. How do you explain this other than that Jesus Christ is considered in Scripture to be divine ?
    http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=215
  11. Felicific Forest
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    01 Dec '05 19:301 edit
    .

    Checkbaiter, how about the fact that Jesus forgives sins, an act only God can perform ?
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    02 Dec '05 01:39
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    .

    Checkbaiter, how about the fact that Jesus forgives sins, an act only God can perform ?
    John 20:22-23
    22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
    23 "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
    (NKJ)
  13. Felicific Forest
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    03 Dec '05 11:541 edit
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    John 20:22-23
    22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
    23 [b]"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them;
    if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
    (NKJ)[/b]
    What I was referring to was the Jewish reaction to Jesus Christ forgiving sins.


    Mark Chapter 9, 2-6

    And there people brought to him a paralytic lying on a stretcher. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Courage, child, your sins are forgiven."

    3 At that, some of the scribes said to themselves, "This man is blaspheming."

    4 Jesus knew what they were thinking, and said, "Why do you harbor evil thoughts?

    5 Which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Rise and walk'?

    But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" - he then said to the paralytic, "Rise, pick up your stretcher, and go home."



    Mark chapter 2:3-7

    3 They came bringing to him a paralytic carried by four men.

    4 Unable to get near Jesus because of the crowd, they opened up the roof above him. After they had broken through, they let down the mat on which the paralytic was lying.

    5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Child, your sins are forgiven."

    6 Now some of the scribes were sitting there asking themselves,

    7 "Why does this man speak that way? 5 He is blaspheming. Who but God alone can forgive sins?"
  14. Forgotten
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    03 Dec '05 14:24
    ok now the thread is called
    Jesus Christ's Divinity in Scripture
    i have re read the entire bible
    and i see no record whatsoever of jesus making white fluffy candy
    you need to stick to the facts
  15. Standard memberRemoved
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    03 Dec '05 21:29
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    What I was referring to was the Jewish reaction to Jesus Christ forgiving sins.


    Mark Chapter 9, 2-6

    And there people brought to him a paralytic lying on a stretcher. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Courage, child, your sins are forgiven."

    3 At that, some of the scribes said to themselves, "This man is blaspheming."

    ...[text shortened]... does this man speak that way? 5 [b]He is blaspheming. Who but God alone can forgive sins?"
    [/b]
    On several occasions the Lord Jesus told the Pharisees that their doctrine was wrong. Mark 2:7 records an instance where this was the case. There is no verse of Scripture that says, “only God can forgive sins.” That idea came from their tradition. The truth is that God grants the authority to forgive sins as He pleases. He granted that authority to the Son and, furthermore, to the apostles. John 20:23 records Jesus saying to them: “If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven.” If the Pharisees were right, and only God can forgive sins, then God, Jesus and the apostles were all God, because they all had the authority to forgive sins.
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