Originally posted by 667joe
So you are saying a life based on self delusion is OK?

most people are extremely deluded regardless of wether they have a belief system or not😕

Originally posted by 667joe
It has been well documented that Muslim suicide bombers believe they will receive 72 virgins in heaven as a reward for their deed. That, of course,is delusional. In fact the idea of heaven in all three religions is delusional.

It has been well documented that Muslim suicide bombers believe they will receive 72 virgins in heaven as a reward for their deed.

So now I must believe you because you said it is well documented. Please show those documents. Are they secret documents that normal Muslim like me can't find them. Sorry I have to believe that you are just brainwashed with false information.

In fact the idea of heaven in all three religions is delusional.

You are of course wrong, and it is not a fact. You are very deluted, and it is well documented that you are deluted.

Originally posted by yo its me
Just becasue it's a religion?! Why do you want to demean faith like that? Muslims face death if they leave it's not a choice of opnions for them. This is serious business and you dismiss it like that?

For people in their faith many have had all the proff they need. For others nothing is enough to prove God is real. For me I just know he is, that's what ...[text shortened]... s people (who had the choice) considered very carefully, this is their life afterall.

Muslims face death if they leave it's not a choice of opnions for them. This is serious business and you dismiss it like that?

That's how ridiculous their beliefs are - that they would cause someone to face death for leaving their religion. Should that belief be respected? I don't think so.

For people in their faith many have had all the proff they need. For others nothing is enough to prove God is real. For me I just know he is, that's what makes sense to me.

So? I'm not saying you don't have a right to your beliefs. I never said that at all. I just don't think faith based views should be held on the same regard as evidence based views. I.e. faith based healing shouldn't be respected as much as well, reality based healing.

Each to their own, you don't beleive? Okay so you don't beleive, I don't have a problem with that.

Cool. So we agree on that point.

I bet if three doctors told you the same thing was their opnion you'd take note, it wouldn't be evidence but you'd assume they'd concidered their opnion carefully.

I would take not and I'd consider it based on their knowledge and that I know that modern medicine is based on evidence and methods to determine validity.

Well, religious people (who had the choice) considered very carefully, this is their life afterall.

Religious people have every right to maintain their standard of evidence. They choose to believe without evidence - that is their right. I am not arguing that at all. I am saying that we should recognize it for what it is - a view that doesn't require evidence.

I have not said that religious people don't have a right to believe what they want. I think you can believe in fairies, unicorns and that dinosaurs roamed the earth with man if you want. Just don't try to pretend that it's based on evidence that we see in reality.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
Muslims face death if they leave it's not a choice of opnions for them. This is serious business and you dismiss it like that?

That's how ridiculous their beliefs are - that they would cause someone to face death for leaving their religion. Should that belief be respected? I don't think so.

[i]For people in their faith many have had all th ...[text shortened]... ust don't try to pretend that it's based on evidence that we see in reality.

That's how ridiculous their beliefs are - that they would cause someone to face death for leaving their religion. Should that belief be respected? I don't think so.

Yes it should be respected. because people like don't understand what they are talking about, and keep repeating what they hear.

You don't understand the difference between faith and law. You don't know what Muslims believe and you call ridiculous. What you are doing is very ridiculous..

Originally posted by ahosyney
[b]That's how ridiculous their beliefs are - that they would cause someone to face death for leaving their religion. Should that belief be respected? I don't think so.

Yes it should be respected. because people like don't understand what they are talking about, and keep repeating what they hear.

You don't understand the difference between faith an know what Muslims believe and you call ridiculous. What you are doing is very ridiculous..[/b]

Why should it be respected? Just because people believe it?

Do you think it's moral to condemn someone to death for leaving a religion by law? Do you think it's moral to hold the belief that someone should be killed for leaving any belief or religion?

I do understand the difference between faith and law and I firmly think they should be separate, hence the first amendment in the US which so many want to violate.

Tell me what I'm not understanding? If people aren't condemned to death for leaving Islam then fine - then I have no problem. If people don't believe that they should then I have no problem.

I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, but a belief or law that would condemn someone to death for leaving any belief is wrong - period.

Edit: I'm sorry if it came off that I was stereotyping muslims. I don't think all muslims believe that. However, the belief by anyone that they should be punished - especially by death - for leaving a religion is ridiculous no matter who it is and what religion it is.

Originally posted by ahosyney
[b]That's how ridiculous their beliefs are - that they would cause someone to face death for leaving their religion. Should that belief be respected? I don't think so.

Yes it should be respected. because people like don't understand what they are talking about, and keep repeating what they hear.

You don't understand the difference between faith an ...[text shortened]... know what Muslims believe and you call ridiculous. What you are doing is very ridiculous..[/b]

If Islam is committed to the belief that those who leave the religion ought to be killed, then Islam is an ugly and morally bankrupt religion. Let's hope that sensible muslims can reform this religion before more human rights abuses are carried out by its psychopathic followers.

Originally posted by ahosyney
You mentioned three statments about each religion as a well known fact about the religion. And then you used these fact as a proof that they are wrong. And as you talk to Muslims like me, then I have to tell that your statement about Islam is not correct, a big lie, and there is no reference to it in Quran or Hadith. So you have to options now:

1- To p ...[text shortened]... are not considered by Muslims as Islamic source. I don't watch CNN to know what Islam teaches.

I am curious to know more about what, exactly Islam does teach.

I think it a complex subject and probably this is not the best medium in which to explore it.

But here is a chance for me to ask a Muslim some questions that bother me without attacking or deriding him as is often done in many places now in the USA.

I hear conflicting accounts about whether Islam advocates violence against non-believers, encourages believers to wage war and otherwise conquer and subjugate other peoples. Some say this is what Islam is all about - perhaps because it suits their purposes presently to create the "other" in order to divert attention from their own mistakes, their own evil doing, their own agendas. Scapegoating has a long history in the world.

But then, most religions are anything but monolithic and are divided against themselves with sectarian. denominational, and even tribal conflicts that show up as theological arguments -- and often as open, violent confrontations and wars.

Since Islam could now be said to be under a magnifying glass here in the USA, and the image seen may be distorted for political purposes or cultural ignorance, tell me what you can about what Islam teaches about violence.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
Why should it be respected? Just because people believe it?

Do you think it's moral to condemn someone to death for leaving a religion by law? Do you think it's moral to hold the belief that someone should be killed for leaving any belief or religion?

I do understand the difference between faith and law and I firmly think they should be separate, h ath - for leaving a religion is ridiculous no matter who it is and what religion it is.

Why should it be respected? Just because people believe it?

If it is counted by Numbers then Christianity should win. But of course not. It should be respected because it is the only true religion. Of course you will say " That you believe and it is not backed up with any evidence"

But this is not correct, I have enough evidences to believe that it is true. But this is not the point we discuss here, and I don't think you want to listen to me too (or may be not).

So if there is GOD and Islam is what he wants us to follow in our life, then it should be respected.

Do you think it's moral to condemn someone to death for leaving a religion by law? Do you think it's moral to hold the belief that someone should be killed for leaving any belief or religion?

Again you using the word "belief" in the place of law, and there is a lot of different. I hope that you have some patient to read this.

In Islam we have three distingushed subjects:

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Akeda: In English could be translated into Faith, or the believe system: In other words it is what related to GOD, Heave, angels, and related stuff.

For example: Muslim should believe that there is only one GOD, and this GOD is the creator. This GOD sent many prophets, some of them are named, and we should believe in all of them.

That is faith, or the believe system.
-------

Second Ebada: or Worship:

How to worship GOD. This includes many practices that a Muslim needs to do to worship GOD. This includes prayer, fasting, and Zakat (Charity).

This is not faith, it is practice.

This also includes a lot of moral stuff like the relations between muslims, and family related stuff.

To make this clear, in Islam it is a type of worship to take care of your parents, and in many place it was mentioned the second important thing after believing in GOD.


--------
The third one is the law:
And the law like any law is set to organize the human lifes. This law includes many branches covers all aspects of human life:

1- The law covers the finantial transaction and how they should be managed.

2- It covers Marriage, Divorce and related stuff.
3- It covers crimes, and their punishments

4- And it also covers the relation between muslims and non-muslim. And how this should be managed. And here there are many branches:
a- Non-muslims living in a Muslim country
b- the relation between Muslims and non muslim counties.
c- what should happen in the case of war:

No back to your point:

"Is it moral to condemn someone to death for leaving a religion?"

I will answer your question in three directions:

1- What is the moral system you use to judge this action. Is it your own opinion, or the opinion of the majority of humans or what?
- lets say that it is your own opinion: do you think this will be enough. In other words I see that it is not moral for a man or a woman to have sex without marriage, and I see that any system advocate this should not be respected. But will you accept that, I don't know, but I don't think so.

So the moral system to be used should have some reference or authintecity other wise it will be the matter of personal preference!!!!

2- What give the Islamic law in moral value is that its reference: If there is GOD and he is as Islam states, then it follows directly that the Islamic law is authentic. So the question is not a specific Islamic law has any moral value or not, the question is: Is there a GOD or not, and is he as Islam states?

3- Sending one to death for changing his religion as descibed in your post, and in the other posts, doesn't really reflects or descibes what the Islamic law stats and that what I will try to describe here:

The subject of this point is what is called in Islamic law "Had El Reda". The word "Had" in arabic means barrier or shield, and in Islamic law it referes to any punishment assigned to any crime. The word "El Reda" in arabic means "to return", and in Islamic law it referes to the person who leaves Islam.

In other words it is the crime of leaving Islam.

What this crime means?

The crime is simply to change your religion compined by enimity to Muslims and the betrayal of the Islamic nation. It is something similar to accusing someone of betrayal. And punishing him for that. Do you think betrayal is moraly accepted?

I think betrayal is not accepted in any law, but the problem here is that it is related with changing religion, and you don't accepted only because of that. But if there is GOD and there is after life, which do you think is more important: betrayal that leads to some damage, or the betrayal that leads to a complete damage.

Who can be accused by this crime?

Any person who embrace a faith or a believe that is not matching the Islamic faith, and try to use his faith to attack muslims, their faith, and their lifes of course.

What are the procedures of accusing someone of such a crime?

If someone suspected in this crime and he lives in a muslim country and was captured, he should be debated enough in all the points that made him take these actions. If he returned, then it is over. No crime. If not then he will be accused. And he should be debated by the Muslim scholars and captured only by the Islamic government no one else. And no one has the authority to accuse any one with any crime under the Islamic law except the goverment. It is not up to any person to do that by himself.

What is the punishment to the crime described above?

Death. And that is where you don't agree, and refuse the complete system because it is not moral as you think, but as I tried to explain before you are not looking at the point correctly, and it is not like as you think.

Who should perform the punishment

Of course the Islamic government. In all the Islamic history the Islamic government used this punishment with Muslims who left Islam, than started to threaten the Islamic nation either by themselves or by joining other nations with their war aganist Islamic countries.

If a Muslim tried to do this punishment by himself without following the law then he himself made a crime, and because he made it aganist a Muslim (a muslim stays a muslim until the Islamic government prove otherwise, and it is not up to anyone to do that), and that is a crime by itself.

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Another important point is that Islam doesn't force any person to join it. You are free to accept Islam or not. So the above argument has nothing to do with those who didn't accept Islam from the begning.

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The rest of your post is not relivant if you understanded what I tried to say. If you need more clarification Just let me know.

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Before I end this I just want to add that the same punishment for the same crime was there before Islam. If you read the Bible you will find it there too. And you will find a simlar describtion to it as I stated above.

One final thing I will put this verse to you from Quran:
(Nobel-Translation)(Al-Baqarah)(o 256 o)(256. There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Tâghût and believes in Allâh, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower.)

That is the general idea, all the other stuff is branches and special cases from the main idea.


EDIT: Sorry for my typos, and mistakes. Please forgive me for that.

Originally posted by 667joe
To the Jews, you are not the chosen people. To the Christians, there was no virgin birth or resurrection, and to the Muslims, there are no virgins in heaven awaiting mad bombers or any one else for that matter. To all three religions, blasphemy is a victimless crime.

Yeah... all moslims are mad bombers just waiting to get shagged after they die...

Originally posted by ahosyney
[b]Why should it be respected? Just because people believe it?

If it is counted by Numbers then Christianity should win. But of course not. It should be respected because it is the only true religion. Of course you will say " That you believe and it is not backed up with any evidence"

But this is not correct, I have enough evidences to believe tha ...[text shortened]...


EDIT: Sorry for my typos, and mistakes. Please forgive me for that.[/b]

UTTER BS.

Religion should be as respected as Santa Claus and the toothfairy.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
You have just demonstrated that Islam is a scourge.

why exactly?!!!!

Why when it comes to Islam I just start to recieve a punch of posts of this type without even a single comment on what I said.

anyway, you are wrong,

Originally posted by Scriabin
I am curious to know more about what, exactly Islam does teach.

I think it a complex subject and probably this is not the best medium in which to explore it.

But here is a chance for me to ask a Muslim some questions that bother me without attacking or deriding him as is often done in many places now in the USA.

I hear conflicting accounts about wh ...[text shortened]... purposes or cultural ignorance, tell me what you can about what Islam teaches about violence.

As you can see, it seems here is not a good environment as well to discuss anything. I got two types of replies as you can see:

1- Islam is a scourge.
2- All Muslims are made bombers.

I explained my point of view as much as I can, with many detials, and all what I got is one line of insult without even a simple reasoning.

I see this a clear message: "Your existance is not Welcomed"

I will try to answer your questions anyway, but Just not now!!

Originally posted by ahosyney
[b]Why should it be respected? Just because people believe it?

If it is counted by Numbers then Christianity should win. But of course not. It should be respected because it is the only true religion. Of course you will say " That you believe and it is not backed up with any evidence"

But this is not correct, I have enough evidences to believe tha ...[text shortened]...


EDIT: Sorry for my typos, and mistakes. Please forgive me for that.[/b]

So if there is GOD and Islam is what he wants us to follow in our life, then it should be respected.

IF there is a god and Islam is what he wants us to follow in our life then it should be respected. Ok.. then you still have to prove that god exists and that Islam is what he/it/she wants us to follow.. start proving. Otherwise the view doesn't deserve any more respect than believing in the tooth fairy.

Do you think betrayal is moraly accepted?

Betrayal by simply leaving a religion is morally acceptable. Yes.

Any person who embrace a faith or a believe that is not matching the Islamic faith, and try to use his faith to attack muslims, their faith, and their lifes of course.


Oh yes, they have to "attack muslims, their faith..etc.." The problem is there are many who say simply saying that there is no god is an attack or saying that the christian god is real means an attack on their faith. That IS morally acceptable, yes.

It is morally unacceptable to condemn someone to death for leaving a religion and then expressing an opinion contrary to that religion.

Death. And that is where you don't agree, and refuse the complete system because it is not moral as you think, but as I tried to explain before you are not looking at the point correctly, and it is not like as you think.

I still think it's ridiculous as you have explained it.


Another important point is that Islam doesn't force any person to join it. You are free to accept Islam or not. So the above argument has nothing to do with those who didn't accept Islam from the begning.


It's good if Islam doesn't force any person to join it. It shouldn't force anyone to stay in it either - whether someone was born into it or converted.


Before I end this I just want to add that the same punishment for the same crime was there before Islam. If you read the Bible you will find it there too. And you will find a simlar describtion to it as I stated above.

The same punishment is immoral if it is inflicted by Judaism, christianity or any other religion or people. It has nothing to do with simply being part of Islam.

You haven't shown how any of my post is irrelevant so I guess I would need clarification on that. You also haven't shown how the idea of murdering someone for leaving a religion and speaking against it is somehow moral. It isn't.

If I believe in Islam and then leave it and say "well, Islam isn't true and christianity is real" or "Islam isn't true and god doesn't exist" - then there is no way that it would be moral for me to be murdered, and yes, it would be murder.

Originally posted by ahosyney
As you can see, it seems here is not a good environment as well to discuss anything. I got two types of replies as you can see:

1- Islam is a scourge.
2- All Muslims are made bombers.

I explained my point of view as much as I can, with many detials, and all what I got is one line of insult without even a simple reasoning.

I see this a clear messa ...[text shortened]... r existance is not Welcomed"

I will try to answer your questions anyway, but Just not now!!

Understood. Perhaps you could send me a private msg.

I am interested in a conversation -- I am not interested in contributing to the clash of civilizations or the culture wars in my country, which only serve to divert attention from the traditional extraterritorial designs of the folks at the very top of the economic ladder in the USA who organize the systematic looting and destruction of the planet for their own gain.

I call this "traditional" because before the USA even existed, the same sort of behavior can be said to have been characteristic of many other peoples and nations going back many thousands of years, as far as we can verify historical events.

So, I want to pursue a conversation with a Muslim to see if it is possible, as I believe it must be, to find common ground and a way to live together and share the resources of our Earth while conserving the planet for the benefit of succeeding generations.

This why I focus on the subject of violence. That issue, alone, if addressed successfully, could prevent a great deal of suffering, as well as forestall a lot of the organized damage being done to the only home we'll ever know in our lifetime. I believe violence as a means of seeking power over others is, at its root, the most fundamental evil driving the human race toward self immolation. We need more partnering, cooperation, understanding and mutual respect.

I don't know how many folks I talk to have experienced organized as well as random violence in their lives, but those who have may know something about what I'm saying.