1. Territories Unknown
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    29 May '14 15:56
    Throughout the narrative of the first five books of the New Testament, we see the hive mind of two powerful groups of the BCE Jewish people at work, the Pharisees and Sadducees.

    The Lord Jesus Christ presented Himself to the Jews as the promised Messiah through His life and His works, and yet the two most learned groups of people among them rejected Him.

    Sadducees were responsible for maintenance of the Temple, including overseeing and ensuring protocols for the various sacrifices executed therein.
    Pharisees were the guardians of interpretation of Jewish Law.
    They both had to know the Torah, both in general as well as the specifics.

    Curious, in my mind at least, that not once in their rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ as 'their Messiah' do we find a single one within either group cite even a solitary Scriptural reference for their objection.
    I would think that at least someone would have denounced His ministry on the basis of authority--- especially the authority which bequeathed them their power among their own people.
    'He can't be the Messiah, because of x...' or some such qualified/quantified argument.

    Instead, they rejected Him on the basis of their ignorance of the holiness of God.
  2. SubscriberSuzianne
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    29 May '14 16:03
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Instead, they rejected Him on the basis of their ignorance of the holiness of God.
    Actually, I find it much easier than that.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." -- 1 Timothy 6:10, KJV

    It was financially in both groups' interest to see the Son of God silenced.
  3. Standard memberRemoved
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    29 May '14 16:20
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Throughout the narrative of the first five books of the New Testament, we see the hive mind of two powerful groups of the BCE Jewish people at work, the Pharisees and Sadducees.

    The Lord Jesus Christ presented Himself to the Jews as the promised Messiah through His life and His works, and yet the two most learned groups of people among them rejected Him ...[text shortened]... argument.

    Instead, they rejected Him on the basis of their ignorance of the holiness of God.
    Actually, didn't they cite the Law? No work on the sabbath? Including healing?
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    29 May '14 16:23
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Throughout the narrative of the first five books of the New Testament, we see the hive mind of two powerful groups of the BCE Jewish people at work, the Pharisees and Sadducees.

    The Lord Jesus Christ presented Himself to the Jews as the promised Messiah through His life and His works, and yet the two most learned groups of people among them rejected Him ...[text shortened]... argument.

    Instead, they rejected Him on the basis of their ignorance of the holiness of God.
    I thought that the objections resided in the absence of all prophecy being fulfilled regarding the Messiah, such as the restoration of peace on earth ect.
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    29 May '14 18:41
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Throughout the narrative of the first five books of the New Testament, we see the hive mind of two powerful groups of the BCE Jewish people at work, the Pharisees and Sadducees.

    The Lord Jesus Christ presented Himself to the Jews as the promised Messiah through His life and His works, and yet the two most learned groups of people among them rejected Him ...[text shortened]... argument.

    Instead, they rejected Him on the basis of their ignorance of the holiness of God.
    From my reading, it seems that Jesus, if he claimed to be the messiah, would not have been the first to do so. The Jews might have said to themselves, "Oh look, another claimant," and not bothered objecting to it in a qualified/quantified argument, whatever that is.
  6. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    29 May '14 21:241 edit
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Throughout the narrative of the first five books of the New Testament, we see the hive mind of two powerful groups of the BCE Jewish people at work, the Pharisees and Sadducees.

    The Lord Jesus Christ presented Himself to the Jews as the promised Messiah through His life and His works, and yet the two most learned groups of people among them rejected Him ...[text shortened]... argument.

    Instead, they rejected Him on the basis of their ignorance of the holiness of God.
    The presence of the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Jews long awaited Prophesied Messiah, threatened the authority structure and Old Testament Law practices of record; imagine the heat the high profile disciples took for breaking rank.
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    29 May '14 22:101 edit
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    The presence of the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Jews long awaited Prophesied Messiah, threatened the authority structure and Old Testament Law practices of record; imagine the heat the high profile disciples took for breaking rank.
    Lyrics: This Jesus Must Die
    {"This Jesus Must Die" was written by Andrew Lloyd Webber; Timothy Miles Bindon Rice.}

    Good Caiaphas, the council waits for you
    The Pharisees and priests are here for you
    Ah gentlemen, you know why we are here
    We've not much time, and quite a problem here.
    ...

    Listen to that howling mob of blockheads in the street
    A trick or two with lepers, and the whole town's on its feet

    He is dangerous
    Jesus Christ Superstar
    He is dangerous
    Tell us that you're who they say you are

    That man is in town right now to whip up some support
    A rabble rousing mission that I think we must abort

    He is dangerous
    Jesus Christ Superstar
    He is dangerous

    Look Caiaphas, they're right outside our yard
    Quick Caiaphas, go call the Roman guard
    No, wait
    We need a more permanent solution to our problem

    What then to do about Jesus of Nazareth?
    Miracle wonder man, hero of fools
    No riots, no army, no fighting, no slogans
    One thing I'll say for Him, Jesus is cool

    We dare not leave Him to His own devices
    His half-witted fans will get out of control
    But how can we stop him? His glamor increases
    By leaps every minute, He's top of the poll

    I see bad things arising
    The crowd crown Him king
    Which the Romans would ban
    I see blood and destruction
    Our elimination because of one man
    Blood and destruction because of one man

    Because, because, because of one man
    Our elimination because of one man
    Because, because, because of one
    'Cause of one, 'cause of one man

    What then to do about this Jesus mania?
    How to we deal with a Carpenter King?
    Where do we start with the man who is bigger
    Than John was when John did His baptism thing?

    Fools! You have no perception!
    The stakes we are gambling are frighteningly high
    We must crush Him completely
    So like John before Him, this Jesus must die

    For the sake of the nation, this Jesus must die
    Must die, must die, this Jesus must die
    So like John before Him, this Jesus must die
    Must die, must die, this Jesus must, Jesus must, Jesus must die
  8. SubscriberSuzianne
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    29 May '14 23:54
    Originally posted by JS357
    Lyrics: This Jesus Must Die
    {"This Jesus Must Die" was written by Andrew Lloyd Webber; Timothy Miles Bindon Rice.}

    Good Caiaphas, the council waits for you
    The Pharisees and priests are here for you
    Ah gentlemen, you know why we are here
    We've not much time, and quite a problem here.
    ...

    Listen to that howling mob of blockheads in the street
    A tric ...[text shortened]... before Him, this Jesus must die
    Must die, must die, this Jesus must, Jesus must, Jesus must die
    Thanks for that. The whole musical was awesome.
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    30 May '14 18:46
    Remarkably there was a seamless conversion through Mary, along with Elizabeth, of the chosen line from Judaism into a prenatal Christianity, while amid all the early paganisms. Both youthful women were from a Jewish home of believers outside the Pharisee or Sadducee "political" groups. They represented a personal theology closer to the Lord's heart.

    After Jesus arrived on the scene, he ransomed his people but matter still needs to be ironed out. From what I recall Peter was hesitant at first to bring the message to all gentiles, but later got on board with Paul. Their fellow Jews had to give up the legal traditions of men that went against the Holy Spirit, and began worshiping and having communion together with the uncircumcised and new converts.
  10. Hmmm . . .
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    30 May '14 20:521 edit
    It really isn’t puzzling—except for those who might err by analyzing Judaism (then or now) through the lenses of Christian understanding. Jews did not have/do not have a central (let alone doctrinal) belief about what it means to be “messiah”—no central understanding to which the Hebrew Scriptures could unequivocally point to. Hence, there is no reason to assume that Jews, then or now, would all recognize the same criteria—in either the written or oral Torahs, or in experience.

    Even in the scriptures, Saul is called messiah (Greek: Christos), as is King Cyrus (in Isaiah 45:1), just for example. Rabbi Hillel (died circa 7 C.E.) believed that King Hezekiah had been messiah, and there was no need to look for another. But multiple messiahs is clearly a possibility. Someone might be the messiah for this time, for this place, for this purpose, etc. Again there is not/was not any universally accepted (let alone doctrinal) criteria for who/what is “the messiah”—though there are many rabbinical views and opinions (some of which do not see the messiah as an individual).

    Of the various “Judaisms” (Jacob Neusner’s term) at play in the 1st century C.E., two groups survived and evolved into what became Christianity and Rabbinical Judaism. They are such differing religious paradigms (though based, in part, on the written Torah—Christians also read the New Testament; Jews also continue to expound and expand the Oral Torah, a historical part of which was eventually written down in the Talmuds and the Midrash) that they don’t even necessarily hear the same religious terms in the same way—and “messiah” is a good example of that.

    [It reminds me a bit of the “Great Schism” of 1054 between Rome and the Eastern Churches: although there were doctrinal and ecclesiastical arguments, at least part of the problem appears to be that most in the Western church could no longer read Greek well, and most in the Eastern church could not read Latin well—there was little chance of their coming to a mutually understood agreement because they no longer understood each other’s language well enough to parse essential detail.]

    As a result, outside of scholars and rabbis who are involved in inter-faith dialogue—and who have made the effort to understand the different ways in which they hear and understand even the same religious terms and texts—most Jews likely do not understand the question. And most of the estimated 700,000 Jews living in Judea/Galilee then (let alone the other roughly 4 million living around the Roman world) likely didn’t even know there was a special messianic claim being presented—they were not all Pharisees or Sadducees, or members of any particular sect: most were am ha’aretz, country-folk who were illiterate and had little religious study, and who lived on the precarious margin of survival. Further, communication was slow and sporadic.

    Again, although there are numerous theories about what “messiah” might be in Judaism (then as now), and although the concept, broadly, may be native to Judaism, it just isn’t in any way as central to Jewish religious thought as it is to Christians—or, in Judaism itself, as is the oneness/wholenesss of God, or the Oral Torah, say.

    In sum, to assume that all Jews would understand the Hebrew Scriptures the same way (let alone the same way that Christians did/do)—which would violate their whole hermeneutical approach, then and now—or understand the same thing by the term “messiah”, or see “messiah” as being as central to their faith as Christians did/do, etc., etc.—and then to declaim on “why ‘the Jews’ rejected Jesus”, would be a bit presumptuous. It would be just as presumptuous if the shoe were on the other foot (say, vis-à-vis the Oral Torah, and how it works).

    Those Jews who came to a particular understanding of “messiah” followed Jesus as that messiah; those who did not have (could not be expected to have) that particular understanding did not (could not be expected to). Blame is in no way called for (and has had pernicious—even atrocious—consequences in the past).

    Personally, I am lately revisiting my “Christic” roots (for reasons I shall not go into)—but I have no interest in whatever people think the “True Christians™” might be, or need to think is true (i.e., “believe” )—nor do I need to claim the label.

    ___________________________________________________________

    NOTE: Even the term “the Jews”, in reference to the first century C.E., is a bit problematic. Sometimes (e.g., in the Gospel of John) the term referred, not to a religious group, but to simply the Semitic residents of Judea (as opposed to, say, Galilee).
  11. Hmmm . . .
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    30 May '14 20:571 edit
    Originally posted by JS357
    From my reading, it seems that Jesus, if he claimed to be the messiah, would not have been the first to do so. The Jews might have said to themselves, "Oh look, another claimant," and not bothered objecting to it in a qualified/quantified argument, whatever that is.
    Agreed. That is, excepting, as I mention, those Jews who did see Jesus' messianic claims (or the claims made on his behalf) as fitting with their particular understanding.
  12. Territories Unknown
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    31 May '14 03:57
    Originally posted by vistesd
    It really isn’t puzzling—except for those who might err by analyzing Judaism (then or now) through the lenses of Christian understanding. [b]Jews did not have/do not have a central (let alone doctrinal) belief about what it means to be “messiah”—no central understanding to which the Hebrew Scriptures could unequivocally point to. Hence, there is ...[text shortened]... o a religious group, but to simply the Semitic residents of Judea (as opposed to, say, Galilee).[/b]
    Good stuff.
  13. Standard memberRJHinds
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    31 May '14 05:17
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    Actually, didn't they cite the Law? No work on the sabbath? Including healing?
    Jesus responded by pointing out that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath and that it was lawful to do certain good deeds such as saving a life on the Sabbath.
  14. Subscribermoonbus
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    31 May '14 07:12
    Bear in mind that the account in the NT was not written by the Jews, so we do not have their view of what the Jewish authorities thought of Jesus and his claim to be the messiah. As another poster has pointed out, there were many claimants at that time; one more great pretender in a long line of them probably did not merit any special notice from contemporary Jewish chroniclers.
  15. Subscribermoonbus
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    31 May '14 07:161 edit
    Originally posted by vistesd
    It really isn’t puzzling—except for those who might err by analyzing Judaism (then or now) through the lenses of Christian understanding. [b]Jews did not have/do not have a central (let alone doctrinal) belief about what it means to be “messiah”—no central understanding to which the Hebrew Scriptures could unequivocally point to. Hence, there is ...[text shortened]... o a religious group, but to simply the Semitic residents of Judea (as opposed to, say, Galilee).[/b]
    I recommend a book to you: James Tabor, the Jesus Dynasty. It deals with many of the issues you mention in your post (what the term "messiah" meant to the Jewish community then, for example).
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