Judas' kiss was sweet...

Originally posted by FMF
My demise?

Neither you nor I [b]know what God's word is. The only things I have refused to accept the truth of are your assertions and the way that you claim to speak on God's behalf - and you do so with stiff and metaphor-strewn language presumably because that's how you memorized it and for you it gives it an authentic ring. Furthermore, y ...[text shortened]... t I will not go to heaven if I refuse to agree with you. That's real rough and tumble stuff.[/b]

Neither you nor I [b]know what God's word is.[/b]
I know that the Bible is God's word, more than I know that I exist, I know that I think, I know that I am typing these words right now.

The only things I have refused to accept the truth of are your assertions and the way that you claim to speak on God's behalf...
On God's behalf? Sure... I guess. I'm simply telling what the Bible says. On whose behalf are you speaking?

... and you do so with stiff and metaphor-strewn language presumably because that's how you memorized it and for you it gives it an authentic ring.
I'm just a big stiffy, huh? Methinks thou dost protesteth too much. Oops! My obsession with all things Shakespearean is showing! And besides, how would you know the first thing regarding the ring of things?

Furthermore, you seem to be claiming that I will not go to heaven if I refuse to agree with you.
Let's take me out of the equation for the moment. The Bible says that unless a person is born again, he will not see the kingdom of heaven. What say you of this?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]Neither you nor I [b]know what God's word is.[/b]
I know that the Bible is God's word, more than I know that I exist, I know that I think, I know that I am typing these words right now.

The only things I have refused to accept the truth of are your assertions and the way that you claim to speak on God's behalf...
On God's behalf? ss a person is born again, he will not see the kingdom of heaven. What say you of this?[/b]

I know that the Bible is God's word

I live in Indonesia. People here know that the Bible isn't God's word. They know that the Koran is God's word. You can see the problem here? Well I view their assertions in exactly the same way as I view yours. Discussing spirituality with my Muslim friends is interesting. Ordinary Indonesian Muslims are refreshingly straightforward about their relationship with God and they exhibit far more humility than you and other Christians of your ilk do. The way you push and push and push your assertions, often in pretentious or even ludicrous language (citing literary allusions etc. as if they are commonly accepted), sucks all life out the question of spirituality and makes God seem so small. Your counterparts are those other Muslims I know whose every second sentence is in high-school Arabic (as if it gives the ideas contained in them more weight). And there's a glazed look in their eye as I say my bit because they are mentally teeing up their next dollop of rote. I don't hang out with those ones so much. They seem to me, for all their fervour, sincerity and Koranic scholarship, to have distanced themselves from genuine spirituality. They claim to be speaking on God's behalf and tell me they can do so because of what is written in the Koran.

[I am speaking on] God's behalf? Sure... I guess. I'm simply telling what the Bible says. On whose behalf are you speaking?

Mine. This is a Spirituality Forum. Why would I be speaking on anyone's behalf other than my own?

Don't misunderstand me. I am not questioning your fervour, sincerity or your biblical scholarship. But claiming to speak on God's behalf is not spirituality. Claiming to speak on God's behalf is a tactic aimed at restricting the exploration of spirituality. I notice in your posts to other threads that often like to tell people, who have not internalized the same things as you have, that they don't know what they are talking about or that they don't know the first thing about this or that (and that you do). In my case you already implied that I am going to burn in hell because you and I see Judas in a different light.

...how would you know the first thing regarding the ring of things?

I have translated two evangelical books into Indonesian for a published American Christian author. He wasn't entirely happy with the fact that I was a Catholic, but we managed to work together in the end.

The Bible says that unless a person is born again, he will not see the kingdom of heaven. What say you of this?

I say that the literature of all organisations of social and psychological control is littered with assertions like this. I am interested in talking about matters of spirituality, not this kind of unverifiable, prosaic mass movement doctrine.

Originally posted by FMF
[b]I know that the Bible is God's word

I live in Indonesia. People here know that the Bible isn't God's word. They know that the Koran is God's word. You can see the problem here? Well I view their assertions in exactly the same way as I view yours. Discussing spirituality with my Muslim friends is interesting. Ordinary Indonesian Mu ...[text shortened]... of spirituality, not this kind of unverifiable, prosaic mass movement doctrine.[/b]

I agree with you here.
The ancient Aztecs, for example, believed that unless they sacrificed a human heart daily to the glory of Huizilpoctli they were doomed.
There is no upper limit to human credulity.

Originally posted by Bogle
I agree with you here.
The ancient Aztecs, for example, believed that unless they sacrificed a human heart daily to the glory of Huizilpoctli they were doomed.
There is no upper limit to human credulity.

I wonder what the ancient Aztec so convinced would say today, were he brought back to life.

Originally posted by FMF
I know that the Bible is God's word

I live in Indonesia. People here know that the Bible isn't God's word. They know that the Koran is God's word. You can see the problem here? Well I view their assertions in exactly the same way as I view yours. Discussing spirituality with my Muslim friends is interesting. Ordinary Indonesian Musli ...[text shortened]... of spirituality, not this kind of unverifiable, prosaic mass movement doctrine.[/b]

Ordinary Indonesian Muslims are refreshingly straightforward about their relationship with God and they exhibit far more humility than you and other Christians of your ilk do.
It is assumed that your example of humility is evidenced within your first post to this thread. Apparently ilk has a way of staining those within its periphery. In my book, humility is based upon orientation to the truth, not some self-effacing genuflection toward society as a whole.

The way you push and push and push your assertions, often in pretentious or even ludicrous language...
You speak pretty. Does it disclose anything other than a thinly-veiled attempt to show you know your way around a thesaurus?

sucks all life out the question of spirituality and makes God seem so small.
You consider yourself the arbiter of spirituality now, eh? Or, perhaps your life experiences in Indonesia have enlightened and elevated you to a path superior to mine, stuck as I am in measly ol' Cleveland. News break, editor: living anywhere on the planet doesn't change truth.

... that they don't know what they are talking about or that they don't know the first thing about this or that (and that you do).
Since you're a closet admirer, you will surely have noticed that my so-called expertise is about things biblical, not 'spiritual.' My corrections are along the lines of the former, not the latter.

In my case you already implied that I am going to burn in hell because you and I see Judas in a different light.
Not at all. There will be people in heaven who never even heard of the poor sorry sap, just as there will be people in hell who know a hell of a lot more about the Bible than I do. How one sees things following salvation has nothing to do with one's ultimate destination.

I have translated two evangelical books into Indonesian for a published American Christian author.
Congratulations. What's that got to do with the sound that I supposedly affect?

I am interested in talking about matters of spirituality, not this kind of unverifiable, prosaic mass movement doctrine.
Forgive me. I assumed you wished to discuss matters of a biblical nature, since you started the friggin' thread that way. Get on with your spiritual self.

FMF,

You did begin this with your assessment of Judas' betrayel of Christ as being just. Where did you learn of this if not from the Holy Bible? In the Bible, Judas condemns himself by taking his own life in despair. It seems to me you have a tough case to make to back up your assertion.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Jesus' betrayal was known prior to creation of man or angels, just as the failure of the man and the woman (or, prior to their failure, Lucifer and a third of the angels) was known in eternity past--- long before even a hint or nuance of failure entered the picture.

One would think that God could have done better than to create beings that would fall so
precipitously...

That is, if only one had the gall that Abraham did to question God.

Nemesio

Originally posted by dinosaurus
FMF,

You did begin this with your assessment of Judas' betrayel of Christ as being just. Where did you learn of this if not from the Holy Bible? In the Bible, Judas condemns himself by taking his own life in despair. It seems to me you have a tough case to make to back up your assertion.

Don't you know there are no dinosaurus in the bible?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Jesus' betrayal was known prior to creation of man or angels, just as the failure of the man and the woman (or, prior to their failure, Lucifer and a third of the angels) was known in eternity past--- long before even a hint or nuance of failure entered the picture.

God is not surprised by tomorrow's events, nor is He taken aback by the inner machinations of man's myriad intentions. He sees them fully and works His plan accordingly.

Do you really believe this crap?

Originally posted by shavixmir
Do you really believe this crap?

Silly question, don't you think?

So noone is able to substantiate the claim that Judas' kiss was just? Neither can I.

Originally posted by FMF
[b]I know that the Bible is God's word

I live in Indonesia. People here know that the Bible isn't God's word. They know that the Koran is God's word. You can see the problem here? Well I view their assertions in exactly the same way as I view yours. Discussing spirituality with my Muslim friends is interesting. Ordinary Indonesian Mu ...[text shortened]... of spirituality, not this kind of unverifiable, prosaic mass movement doctrine.[/b]

One aspect of the psychological game, I think—

Seeking to transform faith, as an existential attitude of confidence and openness in the face of possibility, into a claim of epistemological certainty.

In the face of certainty, faith is not necessary; belief (in the epistemological sense) is the only rational recourse. Such notions as Paul Tillich’s (I think) “courage of faith” no longer apply.

[Note: Yes, I distinguish in my own thought between faith and belief, defining faith as above; when the latter word is used to translate the Hebrew emunah or the Greek pistis, I think it leads to confusion. I do recognize that even in its epistemic usage, belief still carries the sense of confidence or trust; it also, however, carries the sense of what one thinks, a conclusion or opinion.]