God cannot be proven by scientific means that's for sure. That's why so many reject the existence of such a personage. I myself believe in a God primarily because of personal experience that's very subjective and would hold no water scientifically. Still my own experience was so strong that it makes it impossible to see the universe as having no meaning or Creator. I side most of the time on these forms with the anti Christian bunch, because the Christian dogma is so annoying an full of odd, and infuriating ideas. I'm sort of a man with a country. No large group of God believeing people to hang out with. I believe in God, but I have no idea as to anything else connected with God or what happenes after death, or any other spiritual thing.
Science only go's so far with, and then I want poetry not mathmatics. Does that make me a blind fool or hopelessly human, or both ?
Originally posted by buckky God cannot be proven by scientific means that's for sure. That's why so many reject the existence of such a personage. I myself believe in a God primarily because of personal experience that's very subjective and would hold no water scientifically. Still my own experience was so strong that it makes it impossible to see the universe as having no meaning or Cr ...[text shortened]... I want poetry not mathmatics. Does that make me a blind fool or hopelessly human, or both ?
Maybe it just makes you a disciple of "the mystery." Nothing wrong with that.
Originally posted by buckky God cannot be proven by scientific means that's for sure. That's why so many reject the existence of such a personage. I myself believe in a God primarily because of personal experience that's very subjective and would hold no water scientifically. Still my own experience was so strong that it makes it impossible to see the universe as having no meaning or Cr ...[text shortened]... I want poetry not mathmatics. Does that make me a blind fool or hopelessly human, or both ?
Its apparent that you experienced something. But why do you think it was 'god'? Why couldn't it have been some natural phenomenon that caused this experience? Have you considered that possibility? Why would this experience necessitate a universe with a creator? Did you experience him creating? It just seems that if you can't know anything else about this experience, equating it with god might be jumping to conclusions.
Originally posted by rwingett Its apparent that you experienced something. But why do you think it was 'god'? Why couldn't it have been some natural phenomenon that caused this experience? Have you considered that possibility? Why would this experience necessitate a universe with a creator? Did you experience him creating? It just seems that if you can't know anything else about this experience, equating it with god might be jumping to conclusions.
Somethings can't be explained logically. I was forced to go to church as a kid ,and never got off on it at all. It was just drugery, and boring sermons with a bunch of people I felt no connection with. Later on in my twentys I had the first of many experiences that turned my head around towards the spiritual world. i know that subjective experience can be explained away as the biochemistry of the brain going wacky or who knows what, but untill somebody actually has such an experience it sounds like just another nut telling his tale. I'm not trying to start a religions movement surrounding my own experience. I'm somewhat bewildered as to what it was, but I can't shake the overwelming knowingness of having a true revelation of something beyond the physical world, and of a deeply spiritual nature. Mysticism is just that. A mystery, and should not be dismissed as meaningless because it can't be scientifically proven. The human experience is more than two plus two is four. Art for example goes beyond logic, and science, and it's as real as anything else.
Originally posted by buckky Somethings can't be explained logically. I was forced to go to church as a kid ,and never got off on it at all. It was just drugery, and boring sermons with a bunch of people I felt no connection with. Later on in my twentys I had the first of many experiences that turned my head around towards the spiritual world. i know that subjective experience can be exp ...[text shortened]... s four. Art for example goes beyond logic, and science, and it's as real as anything else.
We are all hanging on the edges of our seats. So what was your "mysterious" experience!!
Originally posted by buckky God cannot be proven by scientific means that's for sure. That's why so many reject the existence of such a personage. I myself believe in a God primarily because of personal experience that's very subjective and would hold no water scientifically. Still my own experience was so strong that it makes it impossible to see the universe as having no meaning or Cr ...[text shortened]... I want poetry not mathmatics. Does that make me a blind fool or hopelessly human, or both ?
"God cannot be proven by scientific means that's for sure."
I'm not so sure of that.
The state of the art of the science we possess is far from complete.
Who's to say that someday science won't discover that there is in fact a creator?
Originally posted by whodey We are all hanging on the edges of our seats. So what was your "mysterious" experience!!
I can't go into everything ,but the first time somehting out of the norm took place was over at a friends house one night istening to music. He was playing Bartok, and I had never heard that music before but was being caught up in strangeness of it. All of a sudden I experienced what can only be call Unity consciousness. Everthing in the roon and myself inclided seemed to be one. Everything was me so to speak. No seperation between what I thought of as myself and everything else. It seemed to make all the sense in the world when it happened. It was as if a veil had been lifted, and I saw clearly for the first time. God or what ever seemed to be the stuff that all was made of. This lasted for maybe a minute or two, and then left, but it changed me, and my attitude towards the spiritual. It was obvious to me at that time that I had been blinded by my own contracted state of mind as to the nature of things.
I had a few other experiences, but it would take more than I care to type about to explain, but it does not matter what my experiences were specifically, it's just the internal transformation that jarred my view of what I thought real reality was that matters. My only suggestion to anyone is to leave yourself open to change. A limited attitude to the nature of possiblity is no fun. I can't prove anything. It's just my experience, and I'm sticking to it. What eles can I do ?
Originally posted by josephw [b]"God cannot be proven by scientific means that's for sure."
I'm not so sure of that.
The state of the art of the science we possess is far from complete.
Who's to say that someday science won't discover that there is in fact a creator?[/b]
Let us pray that science will never take away mystery.
Originally posted by buckky I can't go into everything ,but the first time somehting out of the norm took place was over at a friends house one night istening to music. He was playing Bartok, and I had never heard that music before but was being caught up in strangeness of it. All of a sudden I experienced what can only be call Unity consciousness. Everthing in the roon and myself incli ...[text shortened]... can't prove anything. It's just my experience, and I'm sticking to it. What eles can I do ?
I had a similar expereince, but fortunately it was Rachmaninov instead of Bartok.
Originally posted by kirksey957 Let us pray that science will never take away mystery.
Richard Dawkins deals with this in his book Unweaving the Rainbow. The premise was that since science had explained the properties of light that caused a rainbow to happen, that presumably the experience had been robbed of its beauty and its magic. some felt that by giving it a scientific explanation, the rainbow was now reduced to a sterile phenomenon.
Dawkins, or course, took the opposite view, that knowing the causes behind a rainbow did not lessen its aesthetic appeal. Quite the contrary, once you understood what was going on, your appreciation of he glories of nature were magnified. He set out to dispel this myth that science and poetry are at loggerheads.
Originally posted by rwingett Richard Dawkins deals with this in his book Unweaving the Rainbow. The premise was that since science had explained the properties of light that caused a rainbow to happen, that presumably the experience had been robbed of its beauty and its magic. some felt that by giving it a scientific explanation, the rainbow was now reduced to a sterile phenomen ...[text shortened]... ature were magnified. He set out to dispel this myth that science and poetry are at loggerheads.
I guess even Dawkins can get it right once in a while. 😉
Originally posted by rwingett Richard Dawkins deals with this in his book Unweaving the Rainbow. The premise was that since science had explained the properties of light that caused a rainbow to happen, that presumably the experience had been robbed of its beauty and its magic. some felt that by giving it a scientific explanation, the rainbow was now reduced to a sterile phenomen ...[text shortened]... ature were magnified. He set out to dispel this myth that science and poetry are at loggerheads.
I don't disagree with you at all. I was only saying that a sense of "awe", however it may come, is a good thing.
Originally posted by buckky Somethings can't be explained logically. I was forced to go to church as a kid ,and never got off on it at all. It was just drugery, and boring sermons with a bunch of people I felt no connection with. Later on in my twentys I had the first of many experiences that turned my head around towards the spiritual world. i know that subjective experience can be exp s four. Art for example goes beyond logic, and science, and it's as real as anything else.
I'm not saying that you can explain it logically. Or that you need to. But I fail to see why you necessarily equate this experience with god. Unless 'god' is just your default categorization for all unexplained experiences. Its as if you're saying that there are those experiences for which we have a logical explanation and then there's everything else which falls into god's purview. That seems to be more of a 'god of the gaps' argument.
There is as much room for poetry, wonder and awe in the natural world as there is in any supposed supernatural one.
Originally posted by rwingett I'm not saying that you can explain it logically. Or that you need to. But I fail to see why you necessarily equate this experience with god. Unless 'god' is just your default categorization for all unexplained experiences. Its as if you're saying that there are those experiences for which we have a logical explanation and then there's everything else which ...[text shortened]... oetry, wonder and awe in the natural world as there is in any supposed supernatural one.
I like that term "god of the gaps." Seriously, that would be an excellent term for skeptics, seekers, and the like. Those of us who can't figure it out and are just content to be open to possibilities.
Just the facts Sir
08 Jan '09 21:06
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