Originally posted by buckky Somethings can't be explained logically. I was forced to go to church as a kid ,and never got off on it at all. It was just drugery, and boring sermons with a bunch of people I felt no connection with. Later on in my twentys I had the first of many experiences that turned my head around towards the spiritual world. i know that subjective experience can be exp ...[text shortened]... s four. Art for example goes beyond logic, and science, and it's as real as anything else.
Interesting. I can't say I have had a similar experience yet I believe in God. I would just say that even though you have had a negative experience with "church folk" try to keep your mind open the Christ as well. My recommendation is to put aside your negative experiences and brush off a Bible and read about who and what Christ was all about.
Edit: If you have a shred of human decency in you, I recommend telling Rwingett that you, in fact, do not give God credit for any of your experiences. That is before he has a stroke. 😉
Originally posted by rwingett I'm not saying that you can explain it logically. Or that you need to. But I fail to see why you necessarily equate this experience with god. Unless 'god' is just your default categorization for all unexplained experiences. Its as if you're saying that there are those experiences for which we have a logical explanation and then there's everything else which ...[text shortened]... oetry, wonder and awe in the natural world as there is in any supposed supernatural one.
I understand what you mean. The reason I use the term is because that's the word that came to mind when I had the experience. The feeling connected with it was also that of awe, and deep sense of God. Maybe when the first primitives had the inner sense of something bigger, and grander than the common place they to called it God. Maybe the term God is what naturally comes to mind when the down grasp hit's you. Who knows ? Maybe it's Gods way of tapping you on the shoulder, and saying I'm here.
Originally posted by buckky Somethings can't be explained logically. I was forced to go to church as a kid ,and never got off on it at all. It was just drugery, and boring sermons with a bunch of people I felt no connection with. Later on in my twentys I had the first of many experiences that turned my head around towards the spiritual world. i know that subjective experience can be exp ...[text shortened]... s four. Art for example goes beyond logic, and science, and it's as real as anything else.
Hi buckky.
If you are looking for answers that is a great thing and is motivated from outside you I believe. I found church-going a difficult experience and I still don't attend now, so I can relate to what you are saying in that area. However christian fellowship is important and I do miss that.
The God I trust is one of reason and rest, of power and gentleness, of righteousness and forgiveness. "Seek and you will find" is a promise in the bible, so don't let anyone rob you of the opportunity to find out who the real Jesus is for yourself; and some will try!
Reference Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ
Originally posted by buckky I understand what you mean. The reason I use the term is because that's the word that came to mind when I had the experience. The feeling connected with it was also that of awe, and deep sense of God. Maybe when the first primitives had the inner sense of something bigger, and grander than the common place they to called it God. Maybe the term God is what nat ...[text shortened]... 's you. Who knows ? Maybe it's Gods way of tapping you on the shoulder, and saying I'm here.
I think your analysis of the experience in question has been conditioned by your expectations going into it. Whether it is warranted or not, you mentally associate such deep feelings with the actions of god. Then when you actually do experience such a feeling you are predisposed to interpret it according to those expectations. Someone who has not previously formed such mental associations will arrive at a completely different analysis.
The reason 'miracles' only happen to believers is that their prior expectations cause them to interpret certain things in a certain way. A naturalist experiencing the same phenomenon will be far less likely to interpret it as a miracle.
Originally posted by rwingett I think your analysis of the experience in question has been conditioned by your expectations going into it. Whether it is warranted or not, you mentally associate such deep feelings with the actions of god. Then when you actually do experience such a feeling you are predisposed to interpret it according to those expectations. Someone who has not previously ...[text shortened]... uralist experiencing the same phenomenon will be far less likely to interpret it as a miracle.
I fear you might be a little stiff in your view. Let me ask you this. Have you ever givin the spiritual thing a fare chance ? You know as long as you constantly stand with your fist up pertaining to anything in the spiritual arena you block additional understanding. Just relax and feel for a while. You can always go back to the calculator.
Originally posted by buckky I fear you might be a little stiff in your view. Let me ask you this. Have you ever givin the spiritual thing a fare chance ? You know as long as you constantly stand with your fist up pertaining to anything in the spiritual arena you block additional understanding. Just relax and feel for a while. You can always go back to the calculator.
The point I have been trying to make is that a non-spiritual view is not confined to calculators and equations. There is ample room in a naturalistic view for wonder, awe and beauty. But I think the word "spiritual" is a problematic one. It, in many ways, is closely connected with a supernatural view, but is not confined to it exclusively. An atheist contemplating the wonders of nature could be said to have a "spiritual" experience. But the word is so freighted with supernatural baggage that I seldom use it. So when you ask me if I've "ever given the spiritual thing a fare (sic) chance", I'm not quite sure what it is you're asking. Do you mean religion? Or belief in a god? I can not force myself to believe in something I do not believe in. It's not like I'm bottling up or denying religious feelings within me. It's just that I simply don't have any religious feelings. I am perfectly capable of feeling a deep reverence in relation to the majesty of the natural universe, but I don't feel the need to muddy the picture with any supernatural falderal.
Originally posted by rwingett I think your analysis of the experience in question has been conditioned by your expectations going into it. Whether it is warranted or not, you mentally associate such deep feelings with the actions of god. Then when you actually do experience such a feeling you are predisposed to interpret it according to those expectations. Someone who has not previously ...[text shortened]... uralist experiencing the same phenomenon will be far less likely to interpret it as a miracle.
I only know that a few months ago I experienced several miracles in a medical sense. The specialists and surgeons who were on my case could only conclude that miracles had occurred. These were not only for the condition I had that they were concerned about, but I had healing in two other unrelated areas. I had prayer groups from coast to coast and in other countries....friends, relatives, and chess friends I've never met....who united in prayer at the time time for 15 minutes a day. I can't explain what happened. But, more was healed than what they were praying about. The fact that I am here playing chess is proof that I was healed of the main concern. The other healings were just bonuses. Atheists may scoff. It does not matter. I know what happened. Audrey
Originally posted by buckky God cannot be proven by scientific means that's for sure. That's why so many reject the existence of such a personage. I myself believe in a God primarily because of personal experience that's very subjective and would hold no water scientifically. Still my own experience was so strong that it makes it impossible to see the universe as having no meaning or Cr ...[text shortened]... I want poetry not mathmatics. Does that make me a blind fool or hopelessly human, or both ?
First, what is your definition of 'God' (seriously, other than the fact that you implied that God is a person of some sort, I have no idea what you are talking about, particularly since you seem to be purposefully distancing yourself from commonly known conceptions of 'God'😉?
Second, why would the existence of God (as you define it) be a better explanation for these experiences of yours than any number of God-free explanations we could think up? What specific aspects of the experiences were God-indicating?
Originally posted by buckky Somethings can't be explained logically. I was forced to go to church as a kid ,and never got off on it at all. It was just drugery, and boring sermons with a bunch of people I felt no connection with. Later on in my twentys I had the first of many experiences that turned my head around towards the spiritual world. i know that subjective experience can be exp s four. Art for example goes beyond logic, and science, and it's as real as anything else.
Art for example goes beyond logic, and science, and it's as real as anything else.
Yes because a lot of artistic expression is not propositional in nature. Some of it functions in ways to express feelings and emotions (and desires and other attitudes, etc) but not necessarily to assert propositions about the world. In this sense, we could say that much artistic expression is conative or non-cognitive. For example, it might be (profoundly) inappropriate to say this or that piece of art (or whatever the piece conveys or attempts to convey) is true or false.
Do you think your belief in God is something that is either true or false? Or is it more like an outlet of non-cognitive expression for you?
Originally posted by LemonJello Do you think your belief in God is something that is either true or false? Or is it more like an outlet of non-cognitive expression for you?
Good question, Sir.
The practice of religion is indeed an art. Religion without art is merely a collective bellow-in.
Originally posted by LemonJello [b]Art for example goes beyond logic, and science, and it's as real as anything else.
Yes because a lot of artistic expression is not propositional in nature. Some of it functions in ways to express feelings and emotions (and desires and other attitudes, etc) but not necessarily to assert propositions about the world. In this sense, we could say ...[text shortened]... hat is either true or false? Or is it more like an outlet of non-cognitive expression for you?[/b]
artistic expression without any intellectual content is worthy of the sort of thing one would expect on biscuits tins and cornflakes packets, as is religion without reason!
Originally posted by robbie carrobie artistic expression without any intellectual content is worthy of the sort of thing one would expect on biscuits tins and cornflakes packets, as is religion without reason!
What's the 'intellectual content' of this Paul Klee picture:
Originally posted by buckky [b I myself believe in a God primarily because of personal experience that's very subjective and would hold no water scientifically. Still my own experience was so strong that it makes it impossible to see the universe as having no meaning or Creator.[/b]
which God do you believe in Buckky?
Because all the mainstream religions such as islam, judaism, sikhism, hunduism, shinto etc would also fit your requirements for meaning/creator.
What in particular made you select (i assume) christianity?
Originally posted by PawnChop which God do you believe in Buckky?
Because all the mainstream religions such as islam, judaism, sikhism, hunduism, shinto etc would also fit your requirements for meaning/creator.
What in particular made you select (i assume) christianity?
I did not select Christianity. Christianity turns me off. I believe in God but I belong to no religion. God only is my belief.
Just the facts Sir
09 Jan '09 01:00
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