Originally posted by DeepThoughtWould you say proof is required to know something with absolute certainty? Do you believe with absolute certainty that you exist? If so can you prove that you exist?
For the record, I did not call you stupid, I called what you said stupid which is not the same thing. Although what you were trying to communicate is not stupid - someone with a strong bias will fail to recognize the truth if their bias is incorrect, I agree.
Isn't all justification "post hoc"?
Well, it doesn't normally require that one alr ...[text shortened]... notion that God exists somehow and I don't see an easy way of doing any better than "Why not?".
Originally posted by SuzianneYou clearly misunderstood what I said. I said that he could easily prove that he has justification (by telling us what it is), not prove his justifications.
Justification is often personal, because nothing one can say will always justify it for someone else. Therefore, one cannot always "prove" justification.
Originally posted by SuzianneObviously the same thing from my point of view.
But I do not believe lies. You believe that I believe lies.
And I do not need to justify any of it to you.
And I never said you did.
My world revolves quite well (and I suspect that yours does, too) whether you believe what I believe, or not.
Then why do you hide behind vagueness? Why do you constantly criticise but never really discuss the issues of the thread? Why is your first post in this thread a dodge?
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Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeOkay, let me begin at the beginning.
I have faith that the friend I lent 10 pounds to will pay me back. This faith is based on the friend having proved his trustworthiness to me over years of friendship. If a stranger on the street asked to borrow some money I would not have faith that the money would be paid back to me, the stranger not having proved his reliability.
God is a stranger to me. On what am I to base any sense of faith?
faith
[feyth]
noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
Faith is not based on "proof". Even concerning your friend that you say you have faith in, you actually have confidence or trust in him, not faith. Confidence and trust can be proved, but even once proved may not determine future results. So what you call "faith" really only means (to you) something that is "proven" or has a reasonably high likelihood of occurring.
But even so, as you say, it is difficult to have faith when one is a stranger, having not shown you they are worthy. Perhaps the answer here is to cease being a stranger. Come to know God and you will find reason to have faith.
This is what I'm talking about in this thread about justification. We who believe have been shown that our faith is not misplaced. Every Christian has a story - the story of the justification of their faith in Him. We have been shown - as Thomas was shown the wounds of Christ - and so we believe our faith is justified. And yes, this is our own justification, just as your proof of trust in your friend is proof to you and perhaps only an anecdotal story to another.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkTo know something is to have a justified belief that is true. The notion that one can know something with absolute certainty, in other words to infallibly know something, must refer to the justification, since one can know something without being perfectly justified - for example, physics results based on event counting in accelerators have a one in five hundred million chance of being wrong. I am infallible in the matter of my own existence. I have qualia, things that do not exist cannot have qualia or anything else for that matter, therefore I exist. I do not expect to be able to prove my existence to you infallibly, it's just that from your point of view it really is the simplest explanation. However, your post is based on a misunderstanding. I am not asking for proof, I am asking for justification. What is more I do not expect the justification to be infallible, most justifications are not as per my doorbell example a page or two back, although it should be adequate.
Would you say proof is required to know something with absolute certainty? Do you believe with absolute certainty that you exist? If so can you prove that you exist?
Originally posted by SuziannePer definition 1 of faith in the dictionary definiton you copy and pasted, Ghost does have faith in his friend.
Okay, let me begin at the beginning.
faith
[feyth]
noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. ...[text shortened]... ur proof of trust in your friend is proof to you and perhaps only an anecdotal story to another.
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Originally posted by DeepThoughtSome would argue that your qualia may be the product of a computer generated program, aka 'the matrix'.
To know something is to have a justified belief that is true. The notion that one can know something with absolute certainty, in other words to infallibly know something, must refer to the justification, since one can know something without being perfectly justified - for example, physics results based on event counting in accelerators have a one in fiv ...[text shortened]... fications are not as per my doorbell example a page or two back, although it should be adequate.
So can justification be proved as T-head was claiming? Also what one person may find as adequate justification to believe something may not qualify as adequate justification for another person to believe the same thing.
Originally posted by DeepThoughtWhat you say in this post is sort of unfamiliar to me, as I have not taken any classes in philosophy or logic and these types of subjects leave me cold. I would rather feel and think without being tutored in why or how I feel and think. The experience of God cannot come from a classroom, even a theology classroom at seminary. However, to take your point as it stands (even though you say you are not requiring proof, you seem to expect an example or something that might cause you to draw the same conclusion or feel the same way had it happened or occurred to you), part of my internal justification, as I mentioned in a prior post, is that my life is now being lived by me in a far more abundant fashion since I became a Christian. It is as the difference in night from day. It is as if my life prior to becoming a Christian was in black & white, and now it is in color. Jesus has delivered on His promise of living life "more abundantly". I was once actually diagnosed as "clinically depressed" (this was before college) and I now enjoy my life, and every day brings some new adventure. Nothing that God has ever promised me has He failed to deliver. I've written here before about being held captive and forced into having sex with men for money when I was 16 and by the age of 18, I was ready to end my life when I obtained a gun, but angels came to me that night, calling me by name, and told me that God has a plan for me and that I should give it one more day, and the next day my father rescued me from my situation. It wasn't until nearly two years later that I entered college and became a Christian my freshman year. I've lived through many situations where I should have died. I've almost drowned in the Verde river, I nearly choked to death on a hard candy when I was four, and I've had a gun thrust into my stomach and heard the >click-click-click< as the man pulled the trigger. I've been in accidents on my bicycle where the doctor said it was a miracle I didn't die, and I've had insulin reactions where the EMTs working on me said my glucose level didn't even register on their meter. I've flat-lined on an EKG twice and came back at the last minute after getting hit with the paddles three or four times.
To know something is to have a justified belief that is true. The notion that one can know something with absolute certainty, in other words to infallibly know something, must refer to the justification, since one can know something without being perfectly justified - for example, physics results based on event counting in accelerators have a one in fiv ...[text shortened]... fications are not as per my doorbell example a page or two back, although it should be adequate.
My Christian faith is true, and the Bible is true, and God has fulfilled every promise made to me, either directly through the angels or indirectly through the Bible. I said that I realize this isn't nearly enough for people to necessarily believe what I say, but it really is more than good enough for me, and therefore it does justify my faith.
Originally posted by DeepThoughtConfidence and trust in someone is one thing, to call it "faith" is a colloquialism.
Per definition 1 of faith in the dictionary definiton you copy and pasted, Ghost does have faith in his friend.
Faith is unprovable and unseen. And it is certainly a subjective thing. One can clearly be justified in one's faith (in anything really) without "proving" it (or even be convincing) to another.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkIf I do exist as a simulated being then the nature of my existence is not be what I think it is, but that does not stop me from existing.
Some would argue that your qualia may be the product of a computer generated program, aka 'the matrix'.
So can justification be proved as T-head was claiming? Also what one person may find as adequate justification to believe something may not qualify as adequate justification for another person to believe the same thing.
twhitehead was not asking for you to prove that your justification is infallible, I assume that is what you mean by "prove a justification", he was asking you to prove that you have a justification at all, which is easy you just have to state it.
What constitutes adequate? I think for the purposes of this thread we are just requiring that it should not have an obvious flaw.
Originally posted by SuzianneNo, it isn't. It is one of the standard usages of the word. It is also a lot closer to the way you, yourself used it, in your first post in this thread than the definition you are insisting on here.
Confidence and trust in someone is one thing, to call it "faith" is a colloquialism.
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Originally posted by twhiteheadFaith in a human being is misdirected and I would never use it in that way. When speaking of God, whom one cannot see, yes. Speaking of a human who is standing in front of you? Not so much. Confidence is way more exact in this sense.
No, it isn't. It is one of the standard usages of the word. It is also a lot closer to the way you, yourself used it, in your first post in this thread than the definition you are insisting on here.
Originally posted by SuzianneDo you have confidence and trust in God? Is this not part of your faith?
Faith in a human being is misdirected and I would never use it in that way. When speaking of God, whom one cannot see, yes. Speaking of a human who is standing in front of you? Not so much. Confidence is way more exact in this sense.
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeConfidence and trust in God is a part of faith, yes. When used to describe a human, though, I wouldn't go further than confidence or trust. What I might have faith in, is whether God might move that person to do a particular thing, but speaking of the person's own free will, confidence is more exact.
Do you have confidence and trust in God? Is this not part of your faith?