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04 Aug 21
What intelligent designer would worry about people eating shell fish or allocate a whole day just for worshiping itself.
I'll write something on this. Basically the criticism is God in the Old Testament is petty about what to Israelites should eat and how they spend the whole day.
06 Aug 21
@sonship saidI’m not criticising the dietary laws of the Israelites. If I was formulating dietary rules in a hot country with no means of refrigeration I’d probably advise against eating shellfish too but I’d also question the intelligence of the designer for not designing refrigerators at the same time as he made them so blooming tasty. I think the same sort of logic is probably behind the pork ban as well. It took the writers of the Torah to make it a religious prohibition rather than a H & S issue.What intelligent designer would worry about people eating shell fish or allocate a whole day just for worshiping itself.
I'll write something on this. Basically the criticism is God in the Old Testament is petty about what to Israelites should eat and how they spend the whole day.
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@kevcvs57
I took time on this because I didn't know how much you really cared and how much you just wanted to scoff.
It took 1600 years for God to unveil His purpose in stages to humanity.
And He is so profound, both He and His eternal purpose, that in stages He
revealed what was on His heart.
At the stage of the Israelites coming out of Egypt God wanted to show them that He made a distinction between them and the nations around. The foods - clean and unclean, I think represent contact with other people. Or restrictions on eating was a proto lesson on restrictions on their relationships with other people.
I base this on a few of New Testament passages:
Fast forward centuries to a latter stage of God revealing His eternal purpose -
1.) He indicates that foods entering into the stomach do not defile a man but what comes out of his heart defiles a man. Eventually the Son of God pronounced all foods clean.
"Do you not understand that everything that enters from outside into a man is not able to defile him, Because it does not enter into his heart, but into the stomach, and goes out into the drain . . . (In this, He [Jesus] made all foods clean .) (Mark 7:18,19)
2.) Peter, in a trance had a vision of the New Testament Gospel going to the all peoples, Jews and Gentiles, showed people as all kinds of animals on earth for eating.
"And behold heaven opened, and a certain vessel like a great sheet descending, being let down by four corners onto the earth, in which were all the four-footed animals and reptiles of the earth and birds of heaven.
And a voice came to him: Rise up, Peter; slay and eat! But Peter said, By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything COMMON and UNCLEAN. And a voiuce came to him again a second time: The things that God has cleansed, do not make common." (Acts 10:10-16)
3.) Paul tells us that the Law was a school master leading us to grace. The word is for a child conductor escorting a young student to class and helping him with some of those studies.
" But before faith came we were guarded under law, being shut up unto the faith which was to be revealed. So then the law has become our child-conductor unto Christ that we might be justified out of faith. But once faith has come, we are no longer under a child-conductor" (Gal. 3:23,24)
4.) The things written before in the OT we examples to those of the New Covenant.
"Now these things occurred as examples to us, that we should not lust after evil things, even as they also lusted . . . Everything sold in a meat market eat, asking no question for conscience' sake; For the earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. . . eat everything that is set before you, asking no questions for conscience' sake . . . Therefore whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." (1 Cor. 10:6,26,27,31)
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06 Aug 21
I’d also question the intelligence of the designer for not designing refrigerators at the same time as he made them so blooming tasty.
God in history did not forbide man from applying technology and learn to direct His natural laws into inventions to assist them.
God did not stop man from inventing things. God gave mankind many centuries as if to say - "You think you can do it all without God, give it your best shot."
I don't think you can have contempt for divine knowledge and wisdom.
Suppose God delivered to the world a bill we had to pay for the energy produced
for one minute by the sun. We not only cannot produce that life enabling energy.
But we couldn't pay for it if it were sold to us.
This is the attitude that comes about when one does not ever stop, turn around for a moment and be THANKFUL to God for blessings we take for granted every day, every year. Ie. Sunlight, Water, Rain, Seasons, Food,
An unthankful heart becomes critical like God doesn't exist or doesn't know how to be God.
Romans says unthankfulness leads to suppressing the truth calling out in our conscience that there must be a divine Creator.
" . . . that which is known of God is manifest within them, for God has manifested it to them. For the invisible things of Him, both His eternal power and divine characteristics, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being perceived by the things made, so that they would be without excuse;
Because though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or thank Him, but rather became vain in their reasonings, and their heart, lacking understanding, was darkened." (Rom. 1:19-21)
This is not Paul's ad hom. This is his diagnosis of the history of fallen man's drift farther and farther away from God.
Man replaced Him with idols. We are still replacing God with idols of all kinds.
07 Aug 21
@sonship saidThe totality of both your posts is simply stating holy books as facts. Which might work if your comparing your holy book with someone else’s holy book. You claim that these books were written by God through mortal intermediaries but to me it makes far more sense to to me that they formed the basis of a patriarchal power grab.
@kevcvs57
I’d also question the intelligence of the designer for not designing refrigerators at the same time as he made them so blooming tasty.
God in history did not forbide man from applying technology and learn to direct His natural laws into inventions to assist them.
God did not stop man from inventing things. God gave mankind many centurie ...[text shortened]... ay from God.
Man replaced Him with idols. We are still replacing God with idols of all kinds.
Are you not the least bit intrigued that the two main dietary prohibitions involve foods that coincidentally would have come with a government health warning at the time that these books were being promulgated as the word of God.
That is just a wild theory I’m not claiming it as fact. Maybe it was a God developing a sense of otherness and superiority in the Israelites in regard to their fellow semites by denying them the pleasures of shellfish and pork.🤷🏻
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The totality of both your posts is simply stating holy books as facts.
You dismiss with generalization that it should be dismissed because there are many so-called holy books.
I am surprised how much of what I explained you didn't understand about food, eating, and diet as the Bible says. It seems you are caught up in only the physical dimension human life.
In speaking of foods and washing of hands before a meal Jesus teaches here.
Tell me what about these words of Jesus which are not facts in your life.
" But the things which proceed out of the mouth come out of the heart, and those defile the man. For out of the heart come evil reasonings, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witnessings, blasphemies. These are the things which defile the man . . . " (Matt. 15:18-22a)
Which part of Jesus speaking there in the Holy Bible is not a fact for you in your life experience?
07 Aug 21
@sonship saidI understand very well about food hygiene thanks. You are wilfully choosing to believe that those prohibitions came directly from a God even though they were clearly written and promulgated by mortal men thousands of years ago.
@kevcvs57
The totality of both your posts is simply stating holy books as facts.
You dismiss with generalization that it should be dismissed because there are many so-called holy books.
I am surprised how much of what I explained you didn't understand about food, eating, and diet as the Bible says. It seems you are caught up in only the phys ...[text shortened]... part of Jesus speaking there in the Holy Bible is not a fact for you in your life experience?
You are so dishonest in your replies by misrepresenting or wilfully misunderstanding what I’m saying. Again not one shred of evidence that a God or gods prohibited anything of the sort.
“ " But the things which proceed out of the mouth come out of the heart, and those defile the man. For out of the heart come evil reasonings, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witnessings, blasphemies. These are the things which defile the man . . . " (Matt. 15:18-2a) ”
Honestly none of that makes one iota of sense in my real life. If someone said that to me in my real life I would suspect some degree of mental illness on their part.
But let’s suppose for a second that two thousand year old physiologically incorrect ramblings did make sense to me in my real life, that would simply mean that and nothing more, it would tend to prove that a person wrote that rather than a Deity.
We’ve done this already though, the contents of a book you claim to be written by a God cannot be cited as evidence that it was written by a God no matter how fervently you or anyone else believes it to be so.
You choose to believe the authors of that book when they claim Devine inspiration or witness but all the belief in the world does not add up to one iota of evidence.
“ I am surprised how much of what I explained you didn't understand about food, eating, and diet as the Bible says. It seems you are caught up in only the physical dimension human life. ”
Guilty as charged I am caught up in the physical dimension of human life but with a keen and open interest for the possibilities of the spiritual dimension of life itself and I’m as certain that it will not be found in a book that includes dietary prohibitions (regardless of efficacy) as you seem to be that it has been found there.
But please drop the sanctimonious holier than thou attitude when debating someone who has yet to see evidence that holy actually exists because for obvious reasons it’s redundant and jarring.
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08 Aug 21
I understand very well about food hygiene thanks.
I didn't emphasize anything about food hygiene.
In the passages food has a deeper significance.
You are wilfully choosing to believe that those prohibitions came directly from a God even though they were clearly written and promulgated by mortal men thousands of years ago.
It is striking how much you are still missing the point.
And yes, I believe the book of Exodus, Leviticus as from God.
I pointed you to the latter unfolded revelation of the New Testament which spoke
more of the spiritual significance of what comes into us.
The two passages from Jesus were about food as a pointer to what proceeds out of the psychological heart which defiles us. And the passage about hand washing was similar.
I did not emphasize in my exposition hygiene in a physical sense.
You are so dishonest in your replies by misrepresenting or wilfully misunderstanding what I’m saying. Again not one shred of evidence that a God or gods prohibited anything of the sort.
You dodged the question.
You can believe or disbelieve that the this is the word of God.
But when you said there were no facts there you dodge the intended deeper meanings the Christ gave to the OT dietary and hand washing laws.
The facts are indeed He accurately and factually described maladies and problems of the human psychological and spiritual condition.
You coming back with saying you know ALL ABOUT physical food hygiene is missing the point. If you want to miss the point don't expect me to go along with you and miss Christ's point also.
“ " But the things which proceed out of the mouth come out of the heart, and those defile the man. For out of the heart come evil reasonings, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witnessings, blasphemies. These are the things which defile the man . . . " (Matt. 15:18-2a) ”
That is right.
It applies to each of us.
Do you not want to admit it?
Do you prefer to believe all that the Bible was interested in was physical hygiene?
There is a spiritual dimension to human life. To neglect it is to neglect a legitimate part of you total humanity.
Honestly none of that makes one iota of sense in my real life. If someone said that to me in my real life I would suspect some degree of mental illness on their part.
Then your conscience is very dull.
And you do not realize that things which have ushered out of your heart and mind have defiled you before God. Sometimes they defiled you before man.
But let’s suppose for a second that two thousand year old physiologically incorrect ramblings did make sense to me in my real life, that would simply mean that and nothing more, it would tend to prove that a person wrote that rather than a Deity.
We’ve done this already though, the contents of a book you claim to be written by a God cannot be cited as evidence that it was written by a God no matter how fervently you or anyone else believes it to be so.
I don't think Christ's words are worthless ramblings.
I think "No man ever spoke as this man speaks."
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08 Aug 21
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You choose to believe the authors of that book when they claim Devine inspiration or witness but all the belief in the world does not add up to one iota of evidence.
And you choose not to believe Christ's words about what proceeds out of the heart that defiles the man. You would rather believe you need no forgiveness and no spiritual healing, and not salvation from your sins.
Maybe for now you would rather not believe the divine ordained dignity in being created in the image of God. Maybe you feel more comfortable imagining you have all the evidence to inform you that you are really an animal.
Maybe you prefer not to be thought of as being in the image and likeness of God. You undercut then your own dignity.
“ I am surprised how much of what I explained you didn't understand about food, eating, and diet as the Bible says. It seems you are caught up in only the physical dimension human life. ”
Guilty as charged I am caught up in the physical dimension of human life but with a keen and open interest for the possibilities of the spiritual dimension of life itself and I’m as certain that it will not be found in a book that includes dietary
Jesus didn't stop there. There is justification for guilt. There is salvation for guilt.
And explaining the progressive nature of the revelation of the Bible alluded you completely. The physical food was used at a prior stage of God gradually unfolding over the centuries His profound eternal purpose. Actually Jesus at the culmination of the progressive revelation says that we should EAT Him.
You heard the saying - "You are what you eat."
If you can for a brief moment realize Christ is speaking to a spiritual dimension of human life is saying to take Him in and live by Him. Let Him enter into your being and constitute you, filling your "fibers" and causing your to become Him.
"As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me he also shall live because of Me." (John 6:57)
Snooze at your own loss.
Brush His words aside in favor rather of thinking shell fish is the only thing on
God's mind.
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08 Aug 21
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There is a hunger that is deeper than physical hunger. And there is a "food" which is for this hunger deeper than physical food. I told you that the Law was a child conductor leading men to grace, to living by Christ.
This is profound and gradually God unveiled His progressive revelation that He desires to enter into man that man may live a interwoven and mingled life with God.
History shows what this looks like. It looks like Jesus Christ.
Neither His life nor His words are meaningless ramblings to many for 20 centuries.
No one could invent such a Person. And if they could they probably would not do so. Trivialize Christ at your own loss.
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08 Aug 21
1 edit
prohibitions (regardless of efficacy) as you seem to be that it has been found there.
But please drop the sanctimonious holier than thou attitude when debating
What is wrong with being holy?
In your next post tell us why being holy as God is holy is wrong.
God who is different from all things that exist in a transcendent way is "holy".
Things and people dedicated to Him are made holy.
His Spirit is a Holy Spirit.
It is normal for a human being to have an aspect of his life which is holy because of its joining to the holy God. If you do not want God to constitute part of you to be holy then you will be judged for being unholy, ungodly, profane.
Evidence that Christ is the Holy God incarnated as a man is in Him being resurrected from the dead after giving Himself on the cross that we could be saved from being found eternally unholy.
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someone who has yet to see evidence that holy actually exists because for obvious reasons it’s redundant and jarring.
There is plenty of evidence that Jesus spoke the truth that out of your heart come things which defile you. Like most of us, I am sure there are people in your life who could vouch for the fact that you defiled yourself with deeds and words.
Like all of us fallen people, we left a trail of offended victims of our defiling behavior. When it happened to us we were very sensitive. We were less so when we were on the transgressing end, when we were the ones committing iniquities against others.
Face it kevcvs57. There are people in your life who had wished at times you HAD been more "sanctimonious" then the filthiness that bubbled up out of your heart's words and your actions.
Is there no one in your life who would not be delighted to stand by your death bed thinking "Finally your getting what's coming to you" ? So you need this Holy Book and the Savior it tells you about - the Son of God.
@sonship said“ Face it kevcvs57. There are people in your life who had wished at times you HAD been more "sanctimonious" then the filthiness that bubbled up out of your heart's words and your actions.”
someone who has yet to see evidence that holy actually exists because for obvious reasons it’s redundant and jarring.
There is plenty of evidence that Jesus spoke the truth that out of your heart come things which defile you. Like most of us, I am sure there are people in your life who could vouch for the fact that you defiled yourself with de ...[text shortened]... t's coming to you" ? So you need this Holy Book and the Savior it tells you about - the Son of God.
Face it sonship your posts betray the nasty petty nature of your imaginary friend, it amuses me that you have created your god in your own image. I’ll be damned rather than spend an eternity with your psychosis generated deity.
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Face it sonship your posts betray the nasty petty nature of your imaginary friend, it amuses me that you have created your god in your own image. I’ll be damned rather than spend an eternity with your psychosis generated deity.
So you think Jesus had a psychosis.
I don't think your thoughts here in any way show the mind of Christ being
psychotic in comparison to yours.
If anyone ever lived who could have condemned God of the Old Testament it would have been Jesus. He did not one time do so. Rather Jesus referred to God His Father as the "Righteous Father".
I definitely believe the manifestation of a healthy mind in every conceivable way is with Christ. If I had 10 lives to live on earth I wouldn't want to waste one of them imagining that compared to me, Jesus Christ was a psychotic.
10 Aug 21
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@sonship saidI’ve no idea what Jesus of Nazareth was or wasn’t. I’m judging you on your presentation of God, you should really leave Jesus out of it because no matter how you paper over the cracks their is such a disjoint between the supposed teachings of Jesus and the Old Testament it’s like claiming parentage of Snow White for Cruella Deville.
@kevcvs57
Face it sonship your posts betray the nasty petty nature of your imaginary friend, it amuses me that you have created your god in your own image. I’ll be damned rather than spend an eternity with your psychosis generated deity.
So you think Jesus had a psychosis.
I don't think your thoughts here in any way show the mind of Christ be ...[text shortened]... th I wouldn't want to waste one of them imagining that compared to me, Jesus Christ was a psychotic.