1. Joined
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    20 Sep '11 20:15
    Now that I'm done being a judge I want to report on an observation I found on the sermon topic at:

    http://www.crvp.org/conf/Istanbul/abstracts/Cafer%20S.%20Yaran.htm

    quote:

    "The dialogue of knowledge and wisdom has broken off in modern times both in the Western world and in the Islamic world. But their preferences have been different; one has preferred knowledge and neglected wisdom, and the other has done the reverse.

    " a. Breaking off in the Western World for the Sake of Knowledge: Rationalism: As modern philosophy has developed since Descartes, the connection of knowledge to its accompanying concern with wisdom or self-knowledge has been set aside. Philosophy as the love of wisdom that considers the true to be the whole has been replaced by the pursuit of method and the truth of the part. In regard to the Socratic tradition of self-knowledge, philosophy has lost its way. The spirit of the modern age has been strictly rationalistic in the sense that it makes human reason the highest authority in the pursuit of knowledge, and naturalistic in that it seek to explain the inner and outer nature without supernatural presuppositions. At the end, knowledge without wisdom has made modern man spiritually homeless, alien to himself or herself, and has made the humanity and the earth challenged by many global cultural and environmental crises. Rationalist and positivist epistemology followed by an atheist and naturalist ontology and by relativist and nihilist ethic brought to modern world more knowledge but less wisdom, more power but less virtue, and more pleasure but less peace.

    "b. Breaking off in the Islamic World for the Sake of Wisdom: mysticism: The contemporary philosopher of Descartes (1596-1650) in Islamic World is Mulla Sadra (1571-1640) and he made his preference from the side of wisdom rather than knowledge. Roughly after these dates, the dialogue and balance of knowledge and wisdom could not have been kept on in Islamic world as well. The spirit of the last centuries in Islamic world has been mainly mystical rather than rationalistic or balanced one, and many people have seen practical wisdom enough for living a good life. As Iqbal said, “The more genuine school of Sufism have, no doubt, done good work in shaping and directing the evolution of religious experience in Islam; but their latter-day representatives, owing to their ignorance of the modern mind, have become absolutely incapable of receiving any fresh inspiration from modern thought and experience.” At the end, wisdom without knowledge has made Muslim man materially homeless, scientifically and technologically backwards, and culturally fragile. Mystical and practical wisdom followed by an idealist ontology and universalist ethics brought to Muslim world more wisdom but less knowledge, more virtue but less power, and more internal peace but less international peace and prestige."

    unquote.
    In brief, Western thought has sacrificed the positive influence of sources of wisdom in favor of a commitment to knowledge, and Islamic thought has sacrificed the positive influence of sources of knowledge in favor of a commitment to wisdom.

    I especially refer to the idea of being "...incapable of receiving any fresh inspiration from modern thought and experience..." and the idea of cultural fragility, although below I will take some issue with the distinctiveness of the dichotomy constructed by Yaran.

    In my own view, the West began to separate wisdom from knowledge in the aftermath of the Galileo affair, when the practice of natural science was permitted, so long as it did not make pronouncements on certain articles of faith. This was supposed to separate science from the domain of the metaphysical, but by restricting science to the methodology of naturalism, science and religion cooperatively set the stage for the post-Cartesian rise of metaphysical naturalism (commonly called materialism). This is because people naturally tend to posit a reality that matches the scope of the explanations for the world they inhabit. Religion and science inadvertently set the stage for materialism when they cooperated to limit the scope of scientific inquiry and its pronouncements to the natural world.

    Like many constructed dichotomies, Yaran's dichotomy is not so cleanly realized in the real world. There are followers of Western religions who rely on ancient sources of wisdom and who in the extreme "...have become absolutely incapable of receiving any fresh inspiration from modern thought and experience" and there are self-identified Muslims, in, or in contact with, the West, who welcome new knowledge and view their religion in light of it -- but who might be considered by some Muslims to have lost their connection with wisdom.

    Several other sources that I found took the position that there can be knowledge without wisdom but not wisdom without knowledge. The above discussion leans in the direction that either can be had to a degree without much of the other, but that neither can remain relevant to the important questions of life, without the other. The mystic, the oracle, the seer, -- the born again, perhaps -- will receive and provide wisdom from a source other than his own awareness of facts, by direct revelation, or at least, that belief is central to such people. But they will not receive it as an outcome of modern thought and experience; in fact, modern thought and experience, being so readily put to the service of materialism, will appear to be a threat. And it might be. I think this threat leads to an intransigence on both sides, that explains many of the irresolvable conflicts in places such as this forum.

    Well, I just thought I'd say this because it struck me as relevant to the sermon topic. But this isn't a sermon.
  2. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
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    20 Sep '11 21:47
    Originally posted by JS357
    Now that I'm done being a judge I want to report on an observation I found on the sermon topic at:

    http://www.crvp.org/conf/Istanbul/abstracts/Cafer%20S.%20Yaran.htm

    quote:

    "The dialogue of knowledge and wisdom has broken off in modern times both in the Western world and in the Islamic world. But their preferences have been different; one has preferre ...[text shortened]... this because it struck me as relevant to the sermon topic. But this isn't a sermon.
    For those of you who want wisdom to be your guide, listen to the great singer, totally unknown: Eileen McGann:

    Wisdom Guide me, one of my favorite folk songs:

    http://www.reverbnation.com/artist/song_details/338898

    On the left side is a play button. Highly recommended to take a listen.
  3. Donationbbarr
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    20 Sep '11 23:20
    Originally posted by JS357
    Now that I'm done being a judge I want to report on an observation I found on the sermon topic at:

    http://www.crvp.org/conf/Istanbul/abstracts/Cafer%20S.%20Yaran.htm

    quote:

    "The dialogue of knowledge and wisdom has broken off in modern times both in the Western world and in the Islamic world. But their preferences have been different; one has preferre ...[text shortened]... this because it struck me as relevant to the sermon topic. But this isn't a sermon.
    Perhaps Dr. Yaran should spend some time in philosophy departments outside of Turkey. He'd realize that there is still a lively empiricist/rationalist debate in epistemology, that none of us are positivists anymore, that there are both atheists and theists writing philosophy, that many of us are not naturalists (see the Tim Williamson piece in the NYT) that every ethicist has something to say about value, goodness, virtue, etc. (knowledge of which at least partially constitutes wisdom), that very, very few of us are relativists and even fewer are nihilists, etc. etc. Where did this guy get his Ph.D? Was it actually in philosophy?
  4. Joined
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    21 Sep '11 00:11
    Originally posted by bbarr
    Perhaps Dr. Yaran should spend some time in philosophy departments outside of Turkey. He'd realize that there is still a lively empiricist/rationalist debate in epistemology, that none of us are positivists anymore, that there are both atheists and theists writing philosophy, that many of us are not naturalists (see the Tim Williamson piece in the NYT) that e ...[text shortened]... fewer are nihilists, etc. etc. Where did this guy get his Ph.D? Was it actually in philosophy?
    Ahhh! An opportunity to learn! People, philosophers included, have to draw clear lines in a fluid world, if they are to talk about people. Of course your criticism goes. Deeper. I don't know when the material I cited was written. It was definitely a minority view of knowledge and wisdom. And the guy having a doctorate from wherever means nothing to me; it's whether his ideas trigger thought and reactions on the subject.

    Is that the Sunday NYT? That's what I have. I just got back in town and haven't read it yet. Which section, if I may ask?
  5. Joined
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    21 Sep '11 00:14
    Originally posted by JS357
    Now that I'm done being a judge I want to report on an observation I found on the sermon topic at:

    http://www.crvp.org/conf/Istanbul/abstracts/Cafer%20S.%20Yaran.htm

    quote:

    "The dialogue of knowledge and wisdom has broken off in modern times both in the Western world and in the Islamic world. But their preferences have been different; one has preferre ...[text shortened]... this because it struck me as relevant to the sermon topic. But this isn't a sermon.
    🙄

    I read through the a and b paragraphs several times. I honestly feel quite a bit dumber for having done so.
  6. Joined
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    21 Sep '11 01:11
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    🙄

    I read through the a and b paragraphs several times. I honestly feel quite a bit dumber for having done so.
    I am happy to have provided you with that experience. 😀
  7. Donationbbarr
    Chief Justice
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    21 Sep '11 22:34
    Originally posted by JS357
    Ahhh! An opportunity to learn! People, philosophers included, have to draw clear lines in a fluid world, if they are to talk about people. Of course your criticism goes. Deeper. I don't know when the material I cited was written. It was definitely a minority view of knowledge and wisdom. And the guy having a doctorate from wherever means nothing to me; it's wh ...[text shortened]... s what I have. I just got back in town and haven't read it yet. Which section, if I may ask?
    Here is the Williamson piece:

    http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/04/what-is-naturalism/
  8. Standard memberDasa
    Dasa
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    21 Sep '11 23:01
    Originally posted by JS357
    Now that I'm done being a judge I want to report on an observation I found on the sermon topic at:

    http://www.crvp.org/conf/Istanbul/abstracts/Cafer%20S.%20Yaran.htm

    quote:

    "The dialogue of knowledge and wisdom has broken off in modern times both in the Western world and in the Islamic world. But their preferences have been different; one has preferre ...[text shortened]... this because it struck me as relevant to the sermon topic. But this isn't a sermon.
    There can be absolutely no wisdom without true God consciousness.

    What is being past off as wisdom is in fact cleverness. (materialistic cleverness.)
  9. Account suspended
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    21 Sep '11 23:34
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    🙄

    I read through the a and b paragraphs several times. I honestly feel quite a bit dumber for having done so.
    no, its self realisation, you really are that dumb! but fret not, its the beginning of wisdom to recognise as much.
  10. Joined
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    22 Sep '11 00:46
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    no, its self realisation, you really are that dumb! but fret not, its the beginning of wisdom to recognise as much.
    Right. In other news, Billy Madison gives a speech on the Industrial Revolution's effect on literature and the crowd attains collective realization concerning how dumb they all really are.
  11. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
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    22 Sep '11 01:42
    Originally posted by Dasa
    There can be absolutely no wisdom without true God consciousness.

    What is being past off as wisdom is in fact cleverness. (materialistic cleverness.)
    Humans are very capable of being wise all by themselves, they don't need a god to be wise. Wisdom is something a very few of us attain and I for sure have not even come close to wisdom but some people are genuinely wise without having to bow to a god. They are just plain wise all by themselves.
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