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26 Oct 20
The deadly effects of legalism
I once listened to a semon on Luke 6. It listed four characteristics of legalists each starting with the letter C.
CRITICAL:
Legalists have their own set of rules by which they judge everyone. They can not look at anyone without judging them by their set of rules.
CONTROLLING:
They believe it is their duty to enforce their set of rules on everyone else and indeed that is what they endeavor to do.
COCKY:
They are conceited. They are convinced they are right. They think they know everything. Trying to correct them is a futile excercise.
CALLOUS
They are without sympathy and empathy for others. They do not feel anything for the feelings or tears of others. All they care about is their set of rules which they have made their duty to enforce on everyone.
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May God have mercy on us. May He grant us His Holy Spirit, which brings life. May we not have a legalistic spirit which brings only death.
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Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Corinthians 3:5-6
@dj2becker saidJust as Jesus said .. Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. (Luke 12:1 KJV), you need to beware of the church doctrine which you are promoting, which is also hypocrisy.
The deadly effects of legalism
I once listened to a semon on Luke 6. It listed four characteristics of legalists each starting with the letter C.
CRITICAL:
Legalists have their own set of rules by which they judge everyone. They can not look at anyone without judging them by their set of rules.
CONTROLLING:
They believe it is their duty to enforce their set o ...[text shortened]... he letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Corinthians 3:5-6
The word 'legalism' is not in the bible. You [your church idol] have failed to explain what Jesus is addressing in Luke 6. He is addressing the habit of the Pharisees of applying the letter of the Law of Moses and ignoring the spirit of these laws. Jesus explains further:
Mat_23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Luk_11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Jesus accuses the Pharisees of ignoring the IMPORTANT MATTERS and focusing on trivial things, lip service and mouth worship. This is legalism, and it is hypocrisy.
Christian churches are now rife with this hypocrisy problem. Its all mouth worship, professions of faith and promoting the doctrine that good works and righteousness is evil sinful works salvation.
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26 Oct 20
@rajk999 saidThe words ‘church doctrine’ is not in the Bible either but that doesn’t stop you from using them. Hypocritical don’t you think?
Just as Jesus said .. Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. (Luke 12:1 KJV), you need to beware of the church doctrine which you are promoting, which is also hypocrisy.
The word 'legalism' is not in the bible. You [your church idol] have failed to explain what Jesus is addressing in Luke 6. He is addressing the habit of the Pharisees of appl ...[text shortened]... f faith and promoting the doctrine that good works and righteousness is evil sinful works salvation.
The Pharisees were in fact as legalistic as you could get.
In Jesus’ day, the Pharisees, ostensibly in an attempt to keep God’s Law, had devised and added hundreds of manmade laws. But in so doing, they had shifted the focus from the heart to the outward man. This included elaborate rituals for washing themselves before meals and for cleansing their dishes and utensils. While there was a basis for these practices in the Book of Leviticus (11:33-34; 15:12), the Pharisees had taken them far beyond what God intended. Jesus uses this practice to confront the main issue.
Religion apart from God is always trying to fix the outer man to look good to other men, but it neglects the fact that the Lord looks on the heart. Jesus (11:39) confronted the Pharisees with the fact that although they went to great lengths to clean their cups and platters, they neglected to cleanse their hearts, which were full of robbery and wickedness. The Pharisees despised those who were openly sinful, but God looks not only at the outward person, but also on the heart. Inwardly, the Pharisees were greedy and wicked. Jesus compares this to washing the outside of a bowl and then eating out of it, even though the inside was filthy! The God who made the outside made the inside as well. Genuine religion is a matter of the heart, not just of external compliance.
https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-57-why-jesus-hates-legalism-luke-1137-54
@dj2becker said'Church doctrine' is a common expression that everyone can understand. Legalism is a church-fabricated word, not used in normal communication and not found in the bible. If you are going to use the word, then you should explain what you mean. So far you have not explained yourself properly.
The words ‘church doctrine’ is not in the Bible either but that doesn’t stop you from using them. Hypocritical don’t you think?
The Pharisees were in fact as legalistic as you could get.
In Jesus’ day, the Pharisees, ostensibly in an attempt to keep God’s Law, had devised and added hundreds of manmade laws. But in so doing, they had shifted the focus from the heart to ...[text shortened]... external compliance.
https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-57-why-jesus-hates-legalism-luke-1137-54
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26 Oct 20
@rajk999 saidLegalism is a common expression that everyone can understand. Did you even bother to read the link I posted?
'Church doctrine' is a common expression that everyone can understand. Legalism is a church-fabricated word, not used in normal communication and not found in the bible. If you are going to use the word, then you should explain what you mean. So far you have not explained yourself properly.
‘ So, what is legalism? Legalism is an attempt to gain favor with God or to impress our fellow man by doing certain things (or avoiding other things), without regard to the condition of our hearts before God. At the root of legalism is the sin of pride, because the legalist thinks that he is able to commend himself to God by his own good deeds. Invariably, he is only looking at externals, not at his heart. Also, the legalist’s pride motivates him to exalt himself in the sight of others by his outward behavior, again neglecting to see the corruption of his own heart. Thus legalism denies human depravity and exalts human ability. As such, it is opposed to the gospel of God’s grace. That’s why both Jesus and Paul clashed with the legalists.’
@dj2becker saidNonsense, actually church nonsense. Jesus said no such thing. Please quote what Jesus said about legalism. You already quoted Luke 6 and it says no such thing. Your church twists the bible, create new terms, and then use those terms to support their crooked doctrines.
Legalism is a common expression that everyone can understand. Did you even bother to read the link I posted?
‘ So, what is legalism? Legalism is an attempt to gain favor with God or to impress our fellow man by doing certain things (or avoiding other things), without regard to the condition of our hearts before God. At the root of legalism is the sin of pride, because th ...[text shortened]... is opposed to the gospel of God’s grace. That’s why both Jesus and Paul clashed with the legalists.’
In this case the word is 'legalism', then related to that is 'works salvation', both terms are used by the church to preach a doctrine that supports the idea that one does not need to keep the commandments of Christ in order to get eternal life in the Kingdom of God. New words, false interpretations and false conclusions, all of which leads to damnation.
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26 Oct 20
@rajk999 saidOf course one will keep the commandments of Christ if one born of God's Spirit. We love Him because He first loved us. And because we love Him we will keep His commands. But trying to keep His commands will not save one nor take one to heaven. It is by believing in Him and receiving Him that we are born of His Spirit. And when we are born of His Spirit we will want to keep His commandments. We will also only be truely able to keep His commandments when we are born of His Spirit.
Nonsense, actually church nonsense. Jesus said no such thing. Please quote what Jesus said about legalism. You already quoted Luke 6 and it says no such thing. Your church twists the bible, create new terms, and then use those terms to support their crooked doctrines.
In this case the word is 'legalism', then related to that is 'works salvation', both terms are used by ...[text shortened]... m of God. New words, false interpretations and false conclusions, all of which leads to damnation.
@dj2becker saidOf course if you had a reference where Jesus said all that you would have provided it, right? You are long on church references but short on red letters. Jesus said nothing of that sort and in your very same Luke 6 which you misinpretereted you will find Jesus speaking clearly about keeping his commandments
Of course one will keep the commandments of Christ if one born of God's Spirit. We love Him because He first loved us. And because we love Him we will keep His commands. But trying to keep His commands will not save one nor take one to heaven. It is by believing in Him and receiving Him that we are born of His Spirit. And when we are born of His Spirit we will want to keep ...[text shortened]... mandments. We will also only be truely able to keep His commandments when we are born of His Spirit.
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great. (Luke 6:46-49 KJV)
The wise man hears Jesus and does what Jesus says. His doctrine is founded on the rock.
The fool [not calling names] hears what Jesus says and does not do it.
Instead he follows the church, and his doctrine is of men. His ruin is great.
Quote Jesus. Stop quoting the church.
26 Oct 20
@rajk999 saidSince the Bible was originally written in Koine Greek it's not entirely surprising that the word "legalism" is not in the Bible. I do not know enough about the language to know if there is a specific word for "legalism", but the dictionary definition of the word does seem to apply to the passages.
Just as Jesus said .. Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. (Luke 12:1 KJV), you need to beware of the church doctrine which you are promoting, which is also hypocrisy.
The word 'legalism' is not in the bible. You [your church idol] have failed to explain what Jesus is addressing in Luke 6. He is addressing the habit of the Pharisees of appl ...[text shortened]... f faith and promoting the doctrine that good works and righteousness is evil sinful works salvation.
The additional four characteristics detailed in the OP seem to be some ideas concerning the psychology of legalists of whoever gave the sermon. While this might not be in the Bible, I don't think that that is the sole criterion for judging the veracity of a statement.
I'd like to see some evidence that the characteristics listed are observable in legalists. Since the law in question is the religious one the "Critical" characteristic seems faulty; it's not a Nietzschean exercise in inventing one's own morality, but an exercise in imposing one that already exists - at least in the case of the Pharisees in the Gospel of Luke. An alternative hypothesis is that it's driven by fear that if these divine laws aren't followed ruin will follow.
So I think that the supposed characteristics of legalists require justification. I also think there's a problem in your line of argumentation, namely that this is "Church Doctrine" because it probably isn't; I think it's likely to be speculation on the part of the sermon giver.
26 Oct 20
@deepthought saidThanks for your comments, much appreciated. First, neither the word 'legalism', nor the idea of it, is expressed by Jesus Christ. That is my point. If it were that critical to eternal life then Jesus would have said something. Some Christians get around this hurdle with the claim that Jesus did not have the time to preach all of that, or that Jesus's teachings no longer apply. Both are stupid statements for a Christian to make.
Since the Bible was originally written in Koine Greek it's not entirely surprising that the word "legalism" is not in the Bible. I do not know enough about the language to know if there is a specific word for "legalism", but the dictionary definition of the word does seem to apply to the passages.
The additional four characteristics detailed in the OP seem to be some ...[text shortened]... e" because it probably isn't; I think it's likely to be speculation on the part of the sermon giver.
Here is my understanding of this doctrine of legalism.
- Man is inherently evil and sinful by nature.
- Man is not able to do anything good or righteous.
- Only when God's Spirit is given to man then man can do good deeds.
- Only IF the man accepts Christ THEN he is given Gods Spirit.
- All people without Gods Spirit are evil.
- Those without Gods Spirit who try to do good works are legalistic and are trying to earn their salvation [works salvation], hoping to impress God.
- Trying to keep the commandments is futile, it is legalistic and does not impress God in any way.
My beef with that is almost nothing in it is stated or implied by Christ. Some of it comes from twisting the writings of Paul. That is is a church doctrine is a fact. Been to several churches and heard them preach that stuff.
01 Nov 20
@Rajk999
You are confused about what "legalism" even means relative to the issue of law and grace.
In spite of your plethora of haranguing words of judgment and condemnation.
Paul clears up the matter in Galatians.
Galatians 2:16
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
"Legalism" is a simple term used to describe what some do, yourself for example, and that is to bring into "bondage" to the working of the law and the keeping of ordinances and statutes for the purpose of gaining that which can only be apprehended by faith.
Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Consider what Peter says in Acts.
Acts 15:10
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
The "yoke" Peter is referring to is the keeping of the law that "...certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses." Verse 5
Then along came Jesus and took away from the "legalists",(Pharisees) like you, and said, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Matt. 11:28-30
"I will give you rest." Given, not earned.
01 Nov 20
@secondson saidIt is no wonder the church can fool you jokers so easily. You are really very gullible. So strong is the desire not to follow the teachings of Christ, that you choose to ignore Christ and everything He preached.
@Rajk999
You are confused about what "legalism" even means relative to the issue of law and grace.
In spite of your plethora of haranguing words of judgment and condemnation.
Paul clears up the matter in Galatians.
Galatians 2:16
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Chris ...[text shortened]... is easy, and my burden is light. Matt. 11:28-30
"I will give you rest." Given, not earned.
This is a simple matter. Here it is, even you can understand it -
In the days of Christ and the Apostles the LAW OF MOSES, was the law which the Jews followed. The Pharisees, like most people, gravitate to the EASY aspects of this Law of Moses. The hard parts like living righteously, being truthful, being honest, justice and fairness, were parts they did not like, so they ignored these parts and focused on the trivial parts of the law.
Jesus condemned them for doing that. This is the very same thing YOU and YOUR CHURCH IS DOING. You have devised a doctrine, by cherry picking the teachings of Paul, which stats a profession of faith ALONE is all that is required for eternal life. NOTHING ELSE is required because the church hates righteousness and good works which Jesus commanded. Promoting the teachings of Christ is not legalism. Condemning the teachings of Christ which you are doing is the work of Satan and his followers.
03 Nov 20
@rajk999 saidYour hate speech betrays you. Practice what you preach, then maybe someone will listen to you, but not as long as you keep paying lip service to the teachings of Christ and keep condemning others just like the devil.
It is no wonder the church can fool you jokers so easily. You are really very gullible. So strong is the desire not to follow the teachings of Christ, that you choose to ignore Christ and everything He preached.
This is a simple matter. Here it is, even you can understand it -
In the days of Christ and the Apostles the LAW OF MOSES, was the law which the Jews followed. ...[text shortened]... ism. Condemning the teachings of Christ which you are doing is the work of Satan and his followers.
You're stuck in the old covenant. No one ever earned salvation under the law. NO ONE, EVER.
We have a better covenant. You're confused about what the scriptures mean because you have failed to understand the new covenant.
Eternal life is a gift of God's grace through faith in His Son Jesus Christ and His WORK on the cross.
All your "good works" can't add one jot or tittle to it.
03 Nov 20
@secondson saidThe doctrine of mouth-worship is the doctrine of Satan. Its the same thing Satan did to Adam and Eve. He convinced them that there is no need to obey God, you can sin all you want and you will not surely die ... lol 😀
Your hate speech betrays you. Practice what you preach, then maybe someone will listen to you, but not as long as you keep paying lip service to the teachings of Christ and keep condemning others just like the devil.
You're stuck in the old covenant. No one ever earned salvation under the law. NO ONE, EVER.
We have a better covenant. You're confused about what the sc ...[text shortened]... Jesus Christ and His WORK on the cross.
All your "good works" can't add one jot or tittle to it.
05 Nov 20
@rajk999 said"...there is no need to obey God, you can sin all you want and you will not surely die ..."
The doctrine of mouth-worship is the doctrine of Satan. Its the same thing Satan did to Adam and Eve. He convinced them that there is no need to obey God, you can sin all you want and you will not surely die ... lol 😀
And that's your argument. One that you have projected into the discussion for years that no Christian posting in this forum has ever asserted or even suggested. It's your straw man argument that you use to deflect discussion away from the heart of the gospel message as it is revealed in the New Testament.
Every Christian knows that everybody is going to die because of sin, but every Christian also knows he can't redeem himself by doing "good works".
You can't do anything to save yourself.
Billy Graham once said that a man is never more like the devil as when he tries to touch the glory of God.
Believing you can trust in your own "good works" to secure salvation and eternal life is doing just that. You're touching something only God can do.
Notice I didn't say anything about sinning all you want. You're the only one that keeps making that obtuse, absurd and inane assertion, and projecting into the narrative when no Christian in this forum has ever intimated anything of the kind.