25 Mar 09
Instead of killing all the 1st born Egyptian children (most of whom were completely innocent), God could have simply given Pharoh ED with genital herpes and avoided all the unnecessary bloodshed. I'm confident the Pharoh would have let the Israelites go immediately in return for curing his reproductive system.
25 Mar 09
Originally posted by 667joeNot in the plans, Joe.
Instead of killing all the 1st born Egyptian children (most of whom were completely innocent), God could have simply given Pharoh ED with genital herpes and avoided all the unnecessary bloodshed. I'm confident the Pharoh would have let the Israelites go immediately in return for curing his reproductive system.
25 Mar 09
Originally posted by 667joeWhere's the fun in that?
Instead of killing all the 1st born Egyptian children (most of whom were completely innocent), God could have simply given Pharoh ED with genital herpes and avoided all the unnecessary bloodshed. I'm confident the Pharoh would have let the Israelites go immediately in return for curing his reproductive system.
And how else do you market a faith to a primitive people without a little bloodshed?
25 Mar 09
Originally posted by 667joeI am wondering whether Pharaoh would have let them go if it was only the Second Borns that died. First Borns enjoyed a much higher status which is why they were targeted.
Instead of killing all the 1st born Egyptian children (most of whom were completely innocent), God could have simply given Pharoh ED with genital herpes and avoided all the unnecessary bloodshed. I'm confident the Pharoh would have let the Israelites go immediately in return for curing his reproductive system.
27 Mar 09
1 edit
You could consider it payback for Pharoah's instruction that the Hebrew male children should be murdered.
"And the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives for the Hebrew women ... And he said, When you act as midwives for the Hebrew women and see them on the birthstool, if it is a son, then you shall put him to death; but if it is a daughter, then she shall live ..." (Exodus 1:15,16)
At least God gave Pharoah a fair warning, which Pharoah ignored.
27 Mar 09
2 edits
Originally posted by jaywillIt was explicitly payback -- the God of Abraham, Jacob, and Moses is an angry, vengeful autocrat. He gives commandments, He renders judgments, He allowed Joshua to stop the sun in the sky, notwithstanding the rather disconcerting physics of such an undertaking.
You could consider it payback for Pharoah's instruction that the Hebrew male children should be murdered.
[b]"And the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives for the Hebrew women ... And he said, When you act as midwives for the Hebrew women and see them on the birthstool, if it is a son, then you shall put him to death; but if it is a daughter, dus 1:15,16)
At least God gave Pharoah a fair warning, which Pharoah ignored.[/b]
Don't mess with this one.
This is not a God of compassion, forgiveness, etc. No turning the other cheek for this one -- He rules with a mighty hand and is quick to anger. But he understood justice and meted it out on the spot.
Not surprising some people wanted something a little more touchy feely --
Now, I don't want any of you Christians disagreeing with me concerning the Old Testament.
Here's the deal: the New Testament, that's YOUR book.
The Old Testament, that's MY book.
OK? 😉
27 Mar 09
Originally posted by ScriabinWell where is the fun in that?
Now, I don't want any of you Christians disagreeing with me concerning the Old Testament.
So you would say that about 500 years in slavery of God's chosen people equates a God that is quick to anger? Then they were given a myriad of other plagues and warnings before this particular one was passed down? One thing I do recognize is that perhaps this was pay back or an eye for an eye. After all, the Egyptians killed the first born of the Israelites in their quest to kill Moses.
27 Mar 09
3 edits
Originally posted by Scriabin==================================
It was explicitly payback -- the God of Abraham, Jacob, and Moses is an angry, vengeful autocrat. He gives commandments, He renders judgments, He allowed Joshua to stop the sun in the sky, notwithstanding the rather disconcerting physics of such an undertaking.
Don't mess with this one.
This is not a God of compassion, forgiveness, etc. No turning t al: the New Testament, that's YOUR book.
The Old Testament, that's MY book.
OK? 😉
It was explicitly payback -- the God of Abraham, Jacob, and Moses is an angry, vengeful autocrat.
==================================
Are you saying that in the Old Testament there is no mercy of God, patience of God, no forebearance and longsuffering of God ? Are you saying that in the 150 some Psalms there are absolutely no utterances of mercy and forgiveness from God?
Are you saying that there are no sacrifices for the atoning of sin? There is no trespass offering? There is no peace offering?
There is no book of Jonah in which the entire book emphasizes God's unwillingness to have to harshly judge a nation?
Your Bible must have a whole lot of pages cut out of it.
=====================================
He gives commandments, He renders judgments, He allowed Joshua to stop the sun in the sky, notwithstanding the rather disconcerting physics of such an undertaking.
===========================
The first verse in the Bible says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Gen. 1:1) I think that has something to do with His absolute power over creation. If at times God deems to circumvent His natural laws of the cosmos to make a point, He should be able to do it.
Afterall, He created it all out of nothing.
============================
Don't mess with this one.
This is not a God of compassion, forgiveness, etc. No turning the other cheek for this one -- He rules with a mighty hand and is quick to anger. But he understood justice and meted it out on the spot.
=================================
The Old Testament is not without instances of God's forebearance and forgiveness.
In the 136th Psalm the psalmist praises God that "His lovingkindness is forever" after every single verse of the 26 verses. He must have been very impressed that God's lovingkindness is forever.
This was in your Old Testament. Read it sometime.
=====================
Now, I don't want any of you Christians disagreeing with me concerning the Old Testament.
========================
That's our book. Don't you know ?
===================================
Here's the deal: the New Testament, that's YOUR book.
The Old Testament, that's MY book.
OK?
=====================================
Definitely not Okay. All 66 books of the Bible we will carry with us. Thankyou. But you certainly can share its riches with us.
But that is up to you.
In the Old Testament God lays down a foundation in our understanding for His hatred for sin. If He had not, then some of us would not appreciate that He laid them all on His Son. He judged all these hated sins in Christ so that we might be saved.
Against the backround of God's hatred for sin in the Old Testament shines His great love in judging them all on our behalf on the cross of Jesus.
27 Mar 09
Originally posted by whodeyI thought the 500 years of slavery was all part of Gods plan. Otherwise it took him 500 years to even ask Pharaoh to let his people go. Thats not being slow to anger thats being slow to act.
So you would say that about 500 years in slavery of God's chosen people equates a God that is quick to anger? Then they were given a myriad of other plagues and warnings before this particular one was passed down?
One thing I do recognize is that perhaps this was pay back or an eye for an eye. After all, the Egyptians killed the first born of the Israelites in their quest to kill Moses.
Which only shows Gods rather warped sense of justice. If I kill your son and you kill mine in return, if you think that is 'an eye for an eye' then you clearly give my son no individual rights whatsoever.
27 Mar 09
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadMight be warped to your way of thinking but it did have the desired effect. Pharoah yielded after that.
I thought the 500 years of slavery was all part of Gods plan. Otherwise it took him 500 years to even ask Pharaoh to let his people go. Thats not being slow to anger thats being slow to act.
[b]One thing I do recognize is that perhaps this was pay back or an eye for an eye. After all, the Egyptians killed the first born of the Israelites in their ques ...[text shortened]... that is 'an eye for an eye' then you clearly give my son no individual rights whatsoever.[/b]
27 Mar 09
Originally posted by Rajk999But Jaywill is arguing that it was payback. Obviously if the only aim was to get Pharoah to yield there would have been other solutions that were far more reasonable.
Might be warped to your way of thinking but it did have the desired effect. Pharoah yielded after that.
If he could part the oceans etc then surely he could simply erect an invisible force field around the Hebrews camp complete with a path out of Egypt. Even easier would have been to magically transport them straight to Israel.
27 Mar 09
Originally posted by whodeydid it occur to you that 500 years of slavery were what God had decided they deserved at the time? who knows? He might have been busy elsewhere for awhile.
Well where is the fun in that?
So you would say that about 500 years in slavery of God's chosen people equates a God that is quick to anger? Then they were given a myriad of other plagues and warnings before this particular one was passed down? One thing I do recognize is that perhaps this was pay back or an eye for an eye. After all, the Egyptians killed the first born of the Israelites in their quest to kill Moses.
He did impose progressive discipline, bad things that got increasingly worse until the one thing that finally worked was used.
The folks "chosen" in the Old Testament were not, if you might notice, treated uniformly well. Job, for example.
Of course, I've read The Bible as History and all of these plagues have occurred throughout history -- but they do not occur all at the same time or within the span of even a single lifetime.
The Old Testament is a book -- a story book. It is MY story book -- so go ahead and read it, but do not presume to tell me what it means.
27 Mar 09
Originally posted by jaywillyou see, this is the problem -- you are so literal minded about all this you cannot recognize satire when it hits you in the face.
[b]==================================
It was explicitly payback -- the God of Abraham, Jacob, and Moses is an angry, vengeful autocrat.
==================================
Are you saying that in the Old Testament there is no mercy of God, patience of God, no forebearance and longsuffering of God ? Are you saying that in the 150 some [b ...[text shortened]... nt shines His great love in judging them all on our behalf on the cross of Jesus.[/b]
All you seem able to do is play the notes on the page.
Surely the winky smiley was a clue?
May your nose grow so much hair it strains your soup.