As far as we know from Scripture, the first beings created by God were angels (Job 38:4-7). One of the most powerful is referred to in the Bible as “Lucifer.” 2 Although he was an awesome and powerful being, Lucifer was not made morally perfect. That is, he had free will, he could either obey God or disobey Him, and it was up to him to choose between these two alternatives. Speaking figuratively about Lucifer’s beauty, wisdom and ability, Ezekiel wrote:
Ezekiel 28:12-15
(12) Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre [Satan 3] and say to him: This is what the Sovereign Lord says: “You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
(13) You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared.
(14) You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.
(15) You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.”
Some will ask, “How could Lucifer have even conceived of evil?” This is a very good question, and we believe the answer lies in the above verses. First of all, remember that God created him with genuine freedom of will. Second, God in His goodness had made Lucifer so magnificent that you could say he had a taste of what it was like to be God.
The question could be asked: Why didn’t God create Lucifer with less ability and wisdom, in order to protect Himself against the consequences of his potential rebellion? The only answer we can think of lies in the phrase “the model of perfection” in Ezekiel 28.
The KJV reads, “thou sealest up the sum,” which E.W. Bullinger translates “thou art the finished pattern.” Lucifer was the finished pattern, or the model of perfection, for a created being. That is, God gave him all the capacity for wisdom and understanding that He could give a created being.
Among all God’s creation, Lucifer was most capable of perceiving God’s nature and goodness, having been made most like Him. But instead of appreciating the grace of this exalted station and enjoying the fellowship available with God, he was lifted up in pride, thinking himself to be deserving of even greater status — that due only the Creator Himself. He was close enough to being like God that he thought equality with God was something he could grab. 4
Making Lucifer “the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty” was an expression of God’s magnanimity, and to His credit. Lucifer should have been filled with thanksgiving and praise for his Creator, and eager to serve Him in response to God’s blessings. Instead, pride in his own greatness fueled his desire for supremacy. All he ever said was, “I love Lucifer.” His pride finally drove him to attempt to usurp God’s ultimate authority.
Isaiah speaks of Lucifer’s ambitions:
Isaiah 14:13, 14
(13) You said in your heart, I WILL ascend to heaven; I WILL raise my throne above the stars of God; I WILL sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
(14) I WILL ascend above the tops of the clouds; I WILL make myself like the Most High. 5
It is obvious that Lucifer had freedom of will, because five times he said, “I will.” But God will have the last word. 6 The impending doom of the Devil is certain, and many verses attest to that fact. God responded to Lucifer’s pride and rebellion by driving him from His presence and casting him to earth.
Ezekiel 28:16, 17
(16) Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.
(17) Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings. 7
As a result of his fall, Lucifer became the chief antagonist of mankind. He is called by many names in Scripture. He is called “the Devil” (Revelation 20:2 — diabolos literally means “slanderer&rdquo😉, “Satan” (Luke 22:31 — the Greek word satanas comes from the Hebrew satan, which means “adversary&rdquo😉, “Belial” (2 Corinthians 6:15 — it means “worthless,” and is used in connection with filthiness and wickedness), “serpent” (Genesis 3:1 — to emphasize his evil craftiness), “dragon” (Revelation 20:2 — to emphasize his evil and power), “tempter” (Matthew 4:3), “accuser” (Revelation 12:10), “evil one” (Matthew 6:13), “god of this age” (2 Corinthians 4:4), “prince (John 12:31 — ruler; Greek = arche) of this world,” “prince of demons” (Mark 3:22), and “the ruler of the kingdom of the air” (Ephesians 2:2). As the amount of evil and suffering on earth attests, the Devil is doing an excellent job of living up to his biblical names.
Why didn’t God destroy Satan at the time of his original rebellion? Another good question. We believe E.G. White offers a plausible explanation:
Even when it was decided that he could no longer remain in Heaven, infinite wisdom did not destroy Satan. Since the service of love can alone be acceptable to God, the allegiance of His creatures must rest upon a conviction of His justice and benevolence. The inhabitants of Heaven,... being unprepared to comprehend the nature or consequences of sin, could not then have seen the justice and mercy of God in the destruction of Satan. Had he been immediately blotted from existence, they would have served God from fear, rather than from love. The influence of the deceiver would not have been fully destroyed, nor would the spirit of rebellion have been utterly eradicated. Evil must be permitted to come to maturity. For the good of the entire universe through ceaseless ages, Satan must more fully develop his principles, that his charges against the divine government might be seen in their true light by all created beings, that the justice and mercy of God and the immutability of His law might forever be placed beyond all question.
Satan’s rebellion was to be a lesson to the universe through all coming ages, a perpetual testimony to the nature and terrible results of sin. The working out of Satan’s rule, its effects upon both men and angels, would show what must be the fruit of setting aside the divine authority. It would testify that with the existence of God’s government and His Law is bound up the well being of all the creatures He has made. Thus the history of his terrible experiment of rebellion was to be a perpetual safeguard to all holy intelligences, to prevent them from being deceived as to the nature of transgression, to save them from committing sin, and suffering its punishment. 8
As we have seen, God’s Word sets forth the role of the Devil in the origin of evil and sin — a most logical and plausible explanation. But some people do not believe that there is any such thing as “the Devil.” Their alternative explanations for evil, sin and suffering leave people without hope or recourse, having to blame God, themselves, their mothers, society or cruel cosmic chance.
We find the biblical evidence for the existence of the Devil completely compelling. Moreover, the evidence of evil in the world around us points to a sinister intelligence behind all the misery and suffering we see. Concerning this, E. W. Kenyon wrote:
There is no explanation for the intelligence and organization that is behind the power of sin, if there be no such a being as Satan. The prevalence, power and malignity of sin compel us to look for a cause. 9
E.G. White’s perspective is also pertinent here:
While men are ignorant of his devices, this vigilant foe is upon their track every moment. He is intruding his presence in every department of the household, in every street of our cities, in the churches, in the national councils, in the courts of justice, perplexing, deceiving, seducing, everywhere ruining the souls and bodies of men, women, and children, breaking up families, sowing hatred, emulation, strife, sedition, murder. And the Christian world seems to regard these things as though God had appointed them and they must exist. 10
The sin of Lucifer is most surely the root cause of all evil and suffering, but it is not the only cause. In order to answer the question asked of Jesus in John 9, “Who sinned?” we must look further in God’s Word.
http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=361
Originally posted by checkbaiterBut what is the basis of your conflating Lucifer with ha shatan? It seems to me that, in order to do so, you have to do a lot of “reading into” the Isaiah text—of course, as a novice midrashist, I have no real objection to that per se. I just want to know if there’s a particular argument behind it, or if it’s just an assertion that has become part of “the tradition?” (One of my hypotheses is that far more Christian exegesis is midrashic, than is commonly admitted.)
As far as we know from Scripture, the first beings created by God were angels (Job 38:4-7). One of the most powerful is referred to in the Bible as “Lucifer.” 2 Although he was an awesome and powerful being, Lucifer was not made morally perfect. That is, he had free will, he could either obey God or disobey Him, and it was up to him to choose between ...[text shortened]... er in God’s Word.
http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=361
Below is my (somewhat amended) statement on it from the other thread:
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Lucifer (or “day star” ) appears in the Tanach once, but it does not refer to Satan, at least on a plain reading of the text..
Isaiah 14:12. How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! (NRSV)
Heilel, here translated as “Day Star,” and as “Lucifer” in the KJV, means brightness (from halal, to shine, to be bright or splendid) and apparently could refer to Venus, the day or morning “star.” The Hebrew word is related to halel, which means to praise (as in halelu Yah!), to celebrate, to cause to shine, to make light; with different vowel-pointing, the same root can mean to be foolish, insolent or mad, to rave.
Since the poem in Isaiah in which the reference appears is a “song of scorn over the king of Babylon” (JPS), the most straightforward interpretation is that that is to whom the poetic reference applies. It is in later traditions that the “Day Star” becomes conflated with Satan as a fallen angel.
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BTW, CB, this is not meant as an antagonistic question. I respect you for the fact that you are one of the people who brings some scholarship to these debates, whether we agree or not. (I still recall our pleasant exchange about the interpretation of ehyeh asher ehyeh; I found another interesting interpretation the other day.)
Originally posted by vistesdI know you are not being antagonistic V...To me it is common sense to see from the jist of what is written throughout the whole bible that Lucifer and Satan are one and the same. I don't have any specifics right at the moment, but I'll look to document it as best I can. Good to hear from you again. I hope all is well.🙂
But what is the basis of your conflating Lucifer with ha shatan? It seems to me that, in order to do so, you have to do a lot of “reading into” the Isaiah text—of course, as a novice midrashist, I have no real objection to that per se. I just want to know if there’s a particular argument behind it, or if it’s just an assertion that has become ...[text shortened]... etation of ehyeh asher ehyeh; I found another interesting interpretation the other day.)
Originally posted by vistesdI just did a quick search and came up with these verses that tie Satan and the Devil and demons together. Notice also the different names he is given.
But what is the basis of your conflating Lucifer with ha shatan? It seems to me that, in order to do so, you have to do a lot of “reading into” the Isaiah text—of course, as a novice midrashist, I have no real objection to that per se. I just want to know if there’s a particular argument behind it, or if it’s just an assertion that has become ...[text shortened]... etation of ehyeh asher ehyeh; I found another interesting interpretation the other day.)
Rev 12:9
9So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(NKJ)
Rev 12:7
7And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
(NKJ)
Matt 25:41
41"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
(NKJ)
Originally posted by checkbaiterJust two distinctions I want to observe about our respective approaches:
I just did a quick search and came up with these verses that tie Satan and the Devil and demons together. Notice also the different names he is given.
Rev 12:9
9So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(NKJ)
Re ...[text shortened]... t from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
(NKJ)
(1) I do not read the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) through a New Testament lens (okay, sometimes I do, just for fun, but mostly not). I don’t object to Christians doing it, of course.
(2) I don’t read much into prophecy, as far as long-distance prognostication. Again, I recognize that as part of the Christian hermeneutic. (I’m also not much into apocalyptic stuff, though that is certainly an element of both Judaism and Christianity.)
Because of those limitations, I really can’t respond much. I understand the complex principle of demonic (and divine) names: Judaism has some of the same thing with various names for God; Pseudo-Dionysus had a treatise on it in early Christian tradition. As I noted in my original “Satan” post, I don’t think “demonology” was a particularly Christian phenomenon, but was part of the Jewish culture at the time. Ultimately, however, it did not become very much a part of rabbinical Judaism.
I’m pretty well, CB, thanks for asking. You are too, I hope. 🙂
Originally posted by no1marauderI will pm you my address if you care to actually try and kick my ass.
I would prefer to glue my foot to your ass. If you have nothing of any worth to add to the discussion, why don't you keep your ignorant "mouth" shut?
It would be funny to watch you try.
Why don't YOU try and post something worth while instead of re posting other people's thoughts .That whole foot glued to the ass thing sounds kinda gay ..not to mention lame.I should have considered the source.
Originally posted by twhiteheadWell, those Christians who state that unaccceptance of Jesus as savior will not make someone go to eternal damnnation are not true Cristians, and the rest are wrong anyway. The Bible is clear about what Jesus says about believers and unbelievers. Please research the New Testament. If you argue any other theory, it is a lie and a moot point....sorry. The Devil has yet to receive the ultimate punishment by God....eternal damnnation in the lake of fire with his demons and all unbelievers...sounds harsh, but true.
My understanding was that Satan had already recieved his punishment and that he was not the only angel to be sent to hell.
I also disagree with your statement that "unbelief in Jesus Christ as the Savior will go to Hell". There have been many threads on this forum discussing that and there is cirtainly not a consensus even amoung Christians.
Originally posted by chancremechanicHow do you know it is them, and not you?
Well, those Christians who state that unaccceptance of Jesus as savior will not make someone go to eternal damnnation are not true Cristians, and the rest are wrong anyway. The Bible is clear about what Jesus says about believers and unbelievers. Please research the New Testament. If you argue any other theory, it is a lie and a moot point....sorr ...[text shortened]... nal damnnation in the lake of fire with his demons and all unbelievers...sounds harsh, but true.
Originally posted by vistesdI understand what you are implying, but you will not find it in the OT, since Satan is "hidden" so to speak. That is why you will find verses that say "Saul received an evil spirit from the Lord". God does not send evil spirits, satan does. He is not exposed until Jesus revealed or "declared" God( made Him known) and also exposed who really sends evil(Satan).
Just two distinctions I want to observe about our respective approaches:
(1) I do not read the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) through a New Testament lens (okay, sometimes I do, just for fun, but mostly not). I don’t object to Christians doing it, of course.
(2) I don’t read much into prophecy, as far as long-distance prognostication. Again, I recognize t ...[text shortened]... art of rabbinical Judaism.
I’m pretty well, CB, thanks for asking. You are too, I hope. 🙂
There is good reason for the figure metonomy in the OT. The people at the time could not deal with a "Satan" I can look up the link that shows this study in greater detail if you wish to persue it....🙂
Originally posted by checkbaiterIf you can find it, I'd like to look at it anyway....
I understand what you are implying, but you will not find it in the OT, since Satan is "hidden" so to speak. That is why you will find verses that say "Saul received an evil spirit from the Lord". God does not send evil spirits, satan does. He is not exposed until Jesus revealed or "declared" God( made Him known) and also exposed who really sends evil(Sa ...[text shortened]... look up the link that shows this study in greater detail if you wish to persue it....🙂