1. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    29 Dec '05 08:41
    Originally posted by Ivanhoe "...the liberals are the ideological heirs of the fascists and the communists. [They carry] the torch of enmity and hostility towards the Roman-Catholic Church and...show the attitude of arrogance, resentment and hatred that goes with it. [They] will not seize [cease] to fight and accuse the Roman-Catholic Church because [they] know it is [their] natural ideological ennemy. [They], same as the fascists and the communists deny certain rights of the human person, the Sanctity of Life and the existence of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It mustn't come as a surprise to [them that], same as the fascists and the communists, [they] oppose accuse and fight the Jewish people, witnesses of the existence of the one and only true God."

    This should make for an interesting debate. Putting liberals, fascists and communists in the same camp makes for a unique perspective. Would anyone care to comment on these views?
  2. Standard memberDavid C
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    29 Dec '05 09:18
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    This should make for an interesting debate. Putting liberals, fascists and communists in the same camp makes for a unique perspective. Would anyone care to comment on these views?
    I think comments such as this might typify someone with a serious persecution complex. Goes with the territory, I suppose.
  3. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    29 Dec '05 09:21
    Originally posted by David C
    I think comments such as this might typify someone with a serious persecution complex.
    Can you back that up?
  4. Standard memberDavid C
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    29 Dec '05 09:21
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Can you back that up?
    Are you coming on to me?
  5. Standard membershavixmir
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    29 Dec '05 09:222 edits
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Originally posted by Ivanhoe "...the liberals are the ideological heirs of the fascists and the communists. [They carry] the torch of enmity and hostility towards the Roman-Catholic Church and...show the attitude of arrogance, resentment and hatred that goes with it. [They] will not seize [cease] to fight and accuse the Roman-Catholic Church bec in the same camp makes for a unique perspective. Would anyone care to comment on these views?
    They are abosolute bollocks.

    Facism can be any religion or moral dogma (Christians opposing Jews in Hitler's era, Jews opposing Palestinians in the current era) abusing any minority group to create a feeling of "togetherness".

    Liberalism shouldn't give a rat's arse who likes which religion, as long as everyone can make money out of it.

    The communists usually die trying to stand up for the persecuted groups. It was the union men and the commies who Hitler first sent off to the camps!

    Communists generally don't believe in Gods and so education will not have a religious taint to it. HOWEVER... most communists I know would like EVERYONE to be taught about ALL religions AND atheism at school so the child can make his own mind up on the matter.

    As for liberalism being the heir to communism...that is truly bizarre.
    Any communist, worth half his wage, can explain that you can't have communism without first having a fully functional liberal/capitalist society (dialectic materialism). Communism is per definition a consequence of capitalism and not the cause!

    Facism is in my view nothing more than a morally corrupt ideology based within a capitalist setting. The bosses keep earning more than the workers. The workers have no choice regarding what they wish their taxes and earnings to be spent on. BUT to create a feeling of belonging, they take a step away from the liberalistic approach (who cares what you are, as long as you make me money) to scape goating minority groups to whip up a frenzied hatred.

    This could lead to questions about the policies persued in various countries which are "anti-commie" or "anti-terrorist" or "anti-muslim", but that's another debate for another day.
  6. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    29 Dec '05 09:23
    Originally posted by David C
    Are you coming on to me?
    No, although I did just spurt milky tea all over my desk.
  7. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    29 Dec '05 10:00
    About Fascism and Jews--80% of Italian Jews survived World War 2. Incredibly, the fascist dictator Mussolini played an important role in keeping them alive:
    http://vrm.vrway.com/issue11/ITALY_AND_THE_HOLOCAUST.html
  8. Standard membershavixmir
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    29 Dec '05 11:13
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    About Fascism and Jews--80% of Italian Jews survived World War 2. Incredibly, the fascist dictator Mussolini played an important role in keeping them alive:
    http://vrm.vrway.com/issue11/ITALY_AND_THE_HOLOCAUST.html
    Yeah, but that sais more about the Italian mentality than it does about Fascism.

    😉
  9. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    29 Dec '05 11:20
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    Yeah, but that sais more about the Italian mentality than it does about Fascism.
    Could be.

    Supposedly Jews could be (and were) Fascists until 1939, when Hitler bullied Mussolini into making a few changes.
  10. Standard memberPalynka
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    29 Dec '05 11:22
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Originally posted by Ivanhoe "...the liberals are the ideological heirs of the fascists and the communists. [They carry] the torch of enmity and hostility towards the Roman-Catholic Church and...show the attitude of arrogance, resentment and hatred that goes with it. [They] will not seize [cease] to fight and accuse the Roman-Catholic Church bec ...[text shortened]... in the same camp makes for a unique perspective. Would anyone care to comment on these views?
    I agree with Ivanhoe in the sense that communism and liberalism are very close in both their flaws and their virtues.

    Both are utopian idealisms that forget about the human nature and both seek to implement a better society. In one case we have extreme egalitarianism and in the other we have extreme libertarianism. Equality and liberty are extremes that need to suppress the other in order to be obtained to the extent that these two ideologies defend. Defenders of both camps seem to deny this last claim regarding to their own, but interestingly enough both see clearly the one in the opposite camp.

    Religion is an obstacle for both, since it relates to values above the society or the individual and hence it is a disturbance factor that also needs suppressing. Communism has directly taken a more direct approach, but liberalists seek to reduce its power through dispersion.

    As for fascism I don't see the connection with liberalism even if I see the connection with historical communist states.
  11. Standard memberwib
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    29 Dec '05 20:342 edits
    Originally posted by Palynka
    I agree with Ivanhoe in the sense that communism and liberalism are very close in both their flaws and their virtues.

    Both are utopian idealisms that forget about the human nature and both seek to implement a better society. In one case we have extreme egalitarianism and in the other we have extreme libertarianism. Equality and liberty are extremes that n e the connection with liberalism even if I see the connection with historical communist states.
    Religion is an obstacle for both, since it relates to values above the society or the individual and hence it is a disturbance factor that also needs suppressing.

    If Religion relates to values above the society or the individual, why are so many of the religious types constantly trying to impose their values on other individuals?
  12. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    29 Dec '05 20:40
    Originally posted by wib
    If Religion relates to values above the society or the individual, why are so many of the religious types constantly trying to impose their values on other individuals?
    Hi Wib, do you think the liberals are the ideological heirs of the fascists and the communists?
  13. Standard memberwib
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    29 Dec '05 20:57
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Hi Wib, do you think the liberals are the ideological heirs of the fascists and the communists?
    No. I don't even understand how someone can come to that conclusion. Those types of comparisons create more questions than they solve.

    For example - define "liberal"?

    I'm sure if you gathered enough sociology professors in a room they could state "Conservatives are the ideological heirs to the fascists and the communists" and then talk enough to convince themselves of it.
  14. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    30 Dec '05 07:30
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Originally posted by Ivanhoe "...the liberals are the ideological heirs of the fascists and the communists. [They carry] the torch of enmity and hostility towards the Roman-Catholic Church and...show the attitude of arrogance, resentment and hatred that goes with it. [They] will not seize [cease] to fight and accuse the Roman-Catholic Church bec ...[text shortened]... in the same camp makes for a unique perspective. Would anyone care to comment on these views?
    The only anti Catholics I've met were fundamentalist Protestants. These are typically conservatives, not liberals.
  15. Standard membershavixmir
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    30 Dec '05 08:28
    Originally posted by Palynka
    Equality and liberty are extremes that need to suppress the other in order to be obtained to the extent that these two ideologies defend.
    This is the interesting part of your statement.

    With these two extremes facing off against each other, do you believe this creates friction?

    If so, would you agree that friction leads to progression (progression meant as moving from situation A to situation B and not neccesairly for the better)?

    If so, that's dialectic materialism for you. And that is what will lead society from capitalism to socialism/communism.
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