1. Standard memberHand of Hecate
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    05 Dec '06 00:33
    If a person leads a good life, committed to God and subsequently loses their cognitive faculties to the extent that they can no longer grasp the concept of God/Jesus/Salvation are they go to Hell for their lack of belief? Strictly speaking, and in accordance with the bible, the answer would be yes wouldn't it?
  2. Standard memberRBHILL
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    05 Dec '06 00:37
    Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
    If a person leads a good life, committed to God and subsequently loses their cognitive faculties to the extent that they can no longer grasp the concept of God/Jesus/Salvation are they go to Hell for their lack of belief? Strictly speaking, and in accordance with the bible, the answer would be yes wouldn't it?
    If Salvation is a free gift and once you truly accept it you can't lose it.
  3. Standard memberPhlabibit
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    05 Dec '06 00:56
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    If Salvation is a free gift and once you truly accept it you can't lose it.
    So, once you climb on the Jesus-wagon you can do anything you like and will be forgiven?

    Sounds like a crutch.

    P-
  4. The sky
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    05 Dec '06 01:09
    Originally posted by Phlabibit
    So, once you climb on the Jesus-wagon you can do anything you like and will be forgiven?

    Sounds like a crutch.

    P-
    Crutches are useful.
  5. Standard memberHand of Hecate
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    05 Dec '06 01:11
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    If Salvation is a free gift and once you truly accept it you can't lose it.
    I disagree RBHILL, from personal experience, one can lose their faith.
  6. The sky
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    05 Dec '06 01:171 edit
    Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
    I disagree RBHILL, from personal experience, one can lose their faith.
    I think what he is saying is that even if you lose your faith, you will still be saved. You'll be bound for heaven, whether you want or not. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but what do you expect?
  7. Cape Town
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    05 Dec '06 07:00
    Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
    If a person leads a good life, committed to God and subsequently loses their cognitive faculties to the extent that they can no longer grasp the concept of God/Jesus/Salvation are they go to Hell for their lack of belief? Strictly speaking, and in accordance with the bible, the answer would be yes wouldn't it?
    Christianity is not very clear on what a person is judged on.
    A basic flaw in Christian theology is the two concept of God being both forgiving and just. You cannot be both. Christianity teaches that all that is required to get to heaven is to have faith in Jesus as he has already 'paid for our sins'. (Even the concept of 'paying for sins' makes no sense). However as this 'gift' is only given to some people it is not a just system.
    Also the concept of being judged based on your last thoughts before death is totally unjust, as is being forgiven for any sin that you repent for.
  8. Joined
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    05 Dec '06 13:592 edits
    Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
    If a person leads a good life, committed to God and subsequently loses their cognitive faculties to the extent that they can no longer grasp the concept of God/Jesus/Salvation are they go to Hell for their lack of belief? Strictly speaking, and in accordance with the bible, the answer would be yes wouldn't it?
    Did you ever suspect that the spiritual communion and fellowship with Christ could be on a deeper level than cognitive facility?

    Suppose the union of man with God in regeneration takes place on a level deeper than the mind? Then though hindered by a loss of mental facility it may not be discontinued by such loss. And probably God has a way to reach people in such a condition.

    I knew of a person in a coma who communed with God while he was unconsious from a sever car accident.

    What would you suppose is meant by this passage from Paul's writing - "And the peace of Christ which surpasses everyman's understanding, will guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus?" (Phil. 4:7)

    The "peace of Christ" within is something which surpasses eveyman's understanding. This is not saying that the mind is not important by any means. It is saying that the persence and peace of Jesus Christ within surpasses our understanding.
  9. Joined
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    05 Dec '06 14:58
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Christianity is not very clear on what a person is judged on.
    A basic flaw in Christian theology is the two concept of God being both forgiving and just. You cannot be both. Christianity teaches that all that is required to get to heaven is to have faith in Jesus as he has already 'paid for our sins'. (Even the concept of 'paying for sins' makes no sens ...[text shortened]... ghts before death is totally unjust, as is being forgiven for any sin that you repent for.
    The concept of God being both forgiving and just makes sense with repentance being a condition for forgiveness. Repentance in the meaning 'to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life.' Repentance not just of action, but where one's heart has changed. The Bible seems pretty clear on this point, yet many choose to interpret proclaiming Jesus as their saviour as a perpetual 'get out of jail free card' and never truly repent. It's not too difficult to figure out why.
  10. Standard memberRBHILL
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    06 Dec '06 05:05
    Originally posted by Phlabibit
    So, once you climb on the Jesus-wagon you can do anything you like and will be forgiven?

    Sounds like a crutch.

    P-
    Nope.
    Well if this is a sinful world which it is, then of course God free gift of Salvation would be to good to be true for most sinners.
  11. Standard memberRBHILL
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    06 Dec '06 05:06
    Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
    I disagree RBHILL, from personal experience, one can lose their faith.
    Maybe you where never saved in the first play.

    Listen to Way of the Masters thing on "true and false conversion".
  12. Joined
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    06 Dec '06 05:31
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Did you ever suspect that the spiritual communion and fellowship with Christ could be on a deeper level than cognitive facility?

    Suppose the union of man with God in regeneration takes place on a level deeper than the mind? Then though hindered by a loss of mental facility it may not be discontinued by such loss. And probably God has a way to reach peo ...[text shortened]... is saying that the persence and peace of Jesus Christ within surpasses our understanding.
    Well, if the presence and peace of Christ surpasses all understanding, then we cannot approach discussion about it in any meaningful way, nor can we form beliefs about such content. So, jaywill, how come you are always trying to speak meaningfully about it and trying to tell me that I should hold certain beliefs about it?

    Paul's statement sounds like gibberish to me, not unlike a lot of text in the Bible.
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    06 Dec '06 05:597 edits
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    Well, if the presence and peace of Christ surpasses all understanding, then we cannot approach discussion about it in any meaningful way, nor can we form beliefs about such content. So, jaywill, how come you are always trying to speak meaningfully about it and trying to tell me that I should hold certain beliefs about it?

    Paul's statement sounds like gibberish to me, not unlike a lot of text in the Bible.
    There is absolutely no reason why the peace passing every man's understanding makes discussion about the peace of Christ impossible to discuss. Paul discussed the peace of Christ quite a lot as does the entire Bible. The verses is in the Philippian letter which tells us many useful things about the experience of Jesus Christ. He did not write nothing because it was impossible to discuss.

    We can experience God and we can enjoy God and speak of that enjoyment. It is simply that the experience of God surpasses the limitation of our knowledge.

    Paul wrote that the gospel is "foolishness to those who are perishing" (1 Cor. 1:18). Perhaps this sounds like "gibberish" to you because you are in the process of perishing and need to be saved.

    So also does the universe itself surpass everyman's understanding. We do not insist we can't discuss it for that reason.
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    06 Dec '06 06:195 edits
    Compare:

    "Paul's statement sounds like gibberish to me, not unlike a lot of text in the Bible." - LemonJello


    The New Testament tells us:

    "For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
    For it is written, 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the understanding of those who understand I will set aside. '

    Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish?
    For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know God, God was well pleased through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe. ... But we preach Christ cricified, to the Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness.
    But to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
    Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." (1 Cor. 1:19-25)



    The mind of the unbelievers is covered with a veil of darkness which needs the light of revelation to shine through. This we can obtain by prayer and repentence:

    "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in those who are perishing.

    In whom the god of this age has blinded the thoughts of the unbelievers that the illumination of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine on them." (2 Cor. 4:3,4)


    Understanding the New Testament is therefore very much also a spiritual battle.

    So I will pray for you LemonJello. What I write could sound like "gibberish" to you because your thoughts have been blinded by Satan "the god of this age".


    It would do you well to pray also to ask God to have mercy on you because your thoughts are blinded by His enemy. I am serious. You should pray this way for understanding so so much of the Bible would not sound like "gibberish" to your veiled mind.
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    07 Dec '06 22:28
    Originally posted by jaywill
    I am serious.
    That's what's so scary.
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