1. SubscriberBigDoggProblem
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    21 Jun '17 00:50
    Reading the passage from Rajk's recent thread, I thought the topic deserved a side thread.

    I find the concept of "loving my enemies" extremely unnatural. I can understand not always letting your enemy provoke you with cheap jibes. I can understand being less harsh with an enemy than they might deserve, because none of us are perfect and we tend to appreciate some mercy when we ourselves screw up. I can understand subduing my ego so that my enemies cannot easily manipulate me. But love? Can't get there. Almost seems like we couldn't be enemies anymore if that change came about.
  2. SubscriberFMF
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    21 Jun '17 00:59
    Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
    Reading the passage from Rajk's recent thread, I thought the topic deserved a side thread.

    I find the concept of "loving my enemies" extremely unnatural. I can understand not always letting your enemy provoke you with cheap jibes. I can understand being less harsh with an enemy than they might deserve, because none of us are perfect and we tend to ...[text shortened]... ve? Can't get there. Almost seems like we couldn't be enemies anymore if that change came about.
    Maybe the word "love" needs to be dissected a bit and a definition cobbled together in order to shoehorn it into the concept.

    Stuff like 'empathize with', 'don't dehumanize', 'be merciful', 'look for the positive', 'wish for reconciliation', and so on ...if we accumulate enough of these components, might we end up with some kind of hodge podge of positives that you could slap the label "love" on?
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    21 Jun '17 01:06
    Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
    Reading the passage from Rajk's recent thread, I thought the topic deserved a side thread.

    I find the concept of "loving my enemies" extremely unnatural. I can understand not always letting your enemy provoke you with cheap jibes. I can understand being less harsh with an enemy than they might deserve, because none of us are perfect and we tend to ...[text shortened]... ve? Can't get there. Almost seems like we couldn't be enemies anymore if that change came about.
    Almost seems like we couldn't be enemies anymore if that change came about.

    I'm thinking that's the point.
  4. Standard memberKellyJay
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    21 Jun '17 01:08
    Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
    Reading the passage from Rajk's recent thread, I thought the topic deserved a side thread.

    I find the concept of "loving my enemies" extremely unnatural. I can understand not always letting your enemy provoke you with cheap jibes. I can understand being less harsh with an enemy than they might deserve, because none of us are perfect and we tend to ...[text shortened]... ve? Can't get there. Almost seems like we couldn't be enemies anymore if that change came about.
    Well we are called to love God and others as ourselves, there isn't a distinction between
    friends and foes. God shows all of us His love each day, He gives sunshine to the good
    and evil, He gives rain to the just and unjust. He also tells us to forgive because we were
    forgiven.

    I met a man, Pastor Protais whose story will let you know what grace and forgiveness
    towards an enemy is like in the extreme. I have posted this before, but trust me if you
    want to see God's grace, read this link below. Our church and his worked together, his
    testimony is better read than talked about.



    http://preparethewayministry.com/content/protais-rwandan-genocide-survivor%E2%80%99s-story

    Matthew 5:45
    That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
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    21 Jun '17 01:411 edit
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Well we are called to love God and others as ourselves, there isn't a distinction between
    friends and foes. God shows all of us His love each day, He gives sunshine to the good
    and evil, He gives rain to the just and unjust. He also tells us to forgive because we were
    forgiven.

    I met a man, Pastor Protais whose story will let you know what grace and f ...[text shortened]... eth his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
    [b]Well we are called to love God and others as ourselves, there isn't a distinction between friends and foes. God shows all of us His love each day, He gives sunshine to the good and evil, He gives rain to the just and unjust. He also tells us to forgive because we were forgiven.

    IIRC you support capital punishment.

    How do you explain maintaining that position given what I quoted above? Without the above being nothing more that empty platitudes?
  6. SubscriberFMF
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    21 Jun '17 01:42
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I met a man, Pastor Protais whose story will let you know what grace and forgiveness towards an enemy is like in the extreme.
    Rwanda aside, how do you think Pastor Protais would have demonstrated grace and forgiveness towards people like twhitehead, divegeester and myself if he'd got into some of the awful debate-scrapes & disagreements you've got into here with us on this forum?
  7. Standard memberRajk999
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    21 Jun '17 02:19
    Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
    Reading the passage from Rajk's recent thread, I thought the topic deserved a side thread.

    I find the concept of "loving my enemies" extremely unnatural. I can understand not always letting your enemy provoke you with cheap jibes. I can understand being less harsh with an enemy than they might deserve, because none of us are perfect and we tend to ...[text shortened]... ve? Can't get there. Almost seems like we couldn't be enemies anymore if that change came about.
    A spinoff from my thread, I would be happy to participate.

    Can you tell me what you make of the words of Jesus surrounding the phrase which is a cause for concern?

    Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. (Luke 6:30-35 KJV)

    My take is as follows:
    Anybody and everybody even the most vile and sinful, is capable of treating people well, who treat them well also. It takes nothing to do that. Jesus is saying that you can do better, because that is what sons of God do.
  8. SubscriberBigDoggProblem
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    22 Jun '17 21:43
    Originally posted by FMF
    Maybe the word "love" needs to be dissected a bit and a definition cobbled together in order to shoehorn it into the concept.

    Stuff like 'empathize with', 'don't dehumanize', 'be merciful', 'look for the positive', 'wish for reconciliation', and so on ...if we accumulate enough of these components, might we end up with some kind of hodge podge of positives that you could slap the label "love" on?
    Almost. But for me, those things don't add up all the way to "love". More like kindness and empathy.

    When not reciprocated, it seems sensible to limit the extent one will go for kindness. I may not return the abuse my enemy gives me, but neither am I going to play the sucker or victim for him.
  9. SubscriberBigDoggProblem
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    22 Jun '17 21:46
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    [b]Almost seems like we couldn't be enemies anymore if that change came about.

    I'm thinking that's the point.[/b]
    Reconciliation is good, but requires both parties to work. If my enemy is dead set on remaining my enemy, despite reasonable overtures of reconciliation, I can't obey the commandment.
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    22 Jun '17 21:50
    Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
    Reconciliation is good, but requires both parties to work. If my enemy is dead set on remaining my enemy, despite reasonable overtures of reconciliation, I can't obey the commandment.
    Have another think about it.
  11. SubscriberBigDoggProblem
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    22 Jun '17 21:591 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    A spinoff from my thread, I would be happy to participate.

    Can you tell me what you make of the words of Jesus surrounding the phrase which is a cause for concern?

    [i]Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. For if ye love the ...[text shortened]... nothing to do that. Jesus is saying that you can do better, because that is what sons of God do.
    My immediate take on the "surrounding" words is that Jesus seems to make light of people loving those that love them, for one. From observation, not everyone who is loved returns that love. Some people respond by taking advantage of those feelings to manipulate the person to their own selfish ends.

    The same goes for most of Jesus' examples. Plenty of people borrow money from a friend but won't loan that friend money when THEY need it, for example.

    It's as if Jesus is assuming that even sinners follow the Golden Rule towards one another (and strangely, judgmentally, that is of no credit to them!); if that really were true, there wouldn't need to be a GR in the first place.
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    23 Jun '17 05:141 edit
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Well we are called to love God and others as ourselves, there isn't a distinction between friends and foes. Good d shows all of us His love each day, He gives sunshine to the good and evil, He gives rain to the just and unjust. He also tells us to forgive because we were
    forgiven.
    He does all this that you write and he demands that we love our enemies...and yet according to you, he's completely OK with burning his enemies for eternity in hell?
  13. SubscriberBigDoggProblem
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    23 Jun '17 06:06
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Have another think about it.
    Or I could stick to talking to people willing to plainly state their points. 😉
  14. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    23 Jun '17 07:44
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    God shows all of us His love each day, He gives sunshine to the good
    and evil, He gives rain to the just and unjust. .
    Heads up.
    Sunshine comes from that big fusion reactor out in space and rain?
    ....well have you seen clouds?
  15. Standard memberKellyJay
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    23 Jun '17 10:33
    Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
    Almost. But for me, those things don't add up all the way to "love". More like kindness and empathy.

    When not reciprocated, it seems sensible to limit the extent one will go for kindness. I may not return the abuse my enemy gives me, but neither am I going to play the sucker or victim for him.
    Love means love, none of us live alone in this life. Each one of us were at one time
    completely lost, and God has reached out to save us all. We are forgiven, for each sin,
    each wicked hateful word, each thought that is against another and God Himself.

    Since we are forgiven so much if we go to God for salvation we need to forgive all that
    have wronged us. For those that have come to God for His grace, we should hold nothing
    back in our hearts towards any other. If we are not God's well, there are other issues.

    Loving the next guy and God has always been the proper way to live, its never changed.
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