Making God and Man One

Originally posted by josephw
(3.) John professes the great satisfaction he had in the advancement of Christ and his interest. He was so far from regretting it, as his disciples did, that he rejoiced in it. This he expresses (v. 29) by an elegant similitude. [1.] He compares our Saviour to the bridegroom: "He that hath the bride is the bridegroom. Do all men come to him? It is well, whit ide of Christ" is another entity altogether, contrary to the popular teaching.[/b]

But you must also remember that a city must be occupied by many people. A few people only make a village or a town. The New Jerusalem is described as a GREAT CITY.

For example:

A village is a clustered human settlement or community, larger than a hamlet but smaller than a town with the population ranging from a few hundred to a few thousand (sometimes tens of thousands). Though often located in rural areas, the term urban village is also applied to certain urban neighbourhoods, such as the East Village in Manhattan, New York City and the Saifi Village in Beirut, Lebanon, as well as Hampstead Village in the London conurbation. Villages are normally permanent, with fixed dwellings; however, transient villages can occur. Further, the dwellings of a village are fairly close to one another, not scattered broadly over the landscape, as a dispersed settlement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Village

HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Glory be to God! Holy! Holy! Holy!

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
But you must also remember that a city must be occupied by many people. A few people only make a village or a town. The New Jerusalem is described as a GREAT CITY.

For example:

A village is a clustered human settlement or community, larger than a hamlet but smaller than a town with the population ranging from a few hundred to a few thousand (sometime ...[text shortened]... /Village

HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Glory be to God! Holy! Holy! Holy!

The Instructor

And a great city it is.
Who said itwasa village

Theanthropos meaning God-Man for the trinitarian I have no issue with God becoming man in or as the second person (many here will have issue with this) of the Trinity....John 1:1 The Word was with God and was God and round about Verse 1:16 of John I believe it states that the Word became Flesh and dwelt among man. However I think commentaries can get in the way at times because the author(s) of the commentary will usually have their own theological bent toward passages. I think we should allow the scriptures to speak for themselves not that we should not know the context or history of the scriptures written. I think it is important to understand history.

Manny

Originally posted by Rajk999
And a great city it is.
Who said itwasa village

I was making sure that everyone knew that a great multitude of believers, like me, will be in that GREAT CITY - The New Jerusalem that comes down from heaven.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Glory be to God! Holy! Holy! Holy!

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
I was making sure that everyone knew that a great multitude of believers, like me, will be in that GREAT CITY - The New Jerusalem that comes down from heaven.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Glory be to God! Holy! Holy! Holy!

The Instructor

Is there another option according to the Bible?

Originally posted by sonship

You cited John 3:29 as proof text for that teaching. The problem is it simply doesn't say that.

John chapter 3, as you know, is about those who are [b]born again (3:16). Surely those who receive eternal life through the new birth comprise those added to Christ as His increase. They are therefore the Bride of Christ in every potent ...[text shortened]... nal things which need to be also mentioned, will have to wait.[/b]

Ephesians 5 can't be used a proof text for the "Body of Christ" to be the "Bride of Christ. Paul here is merely explaining the sanctity of marriage and the interrelationship between husband and wife by making a comparison only. In no way can one make the passage say that the "Body of Christ" is His bride.

Then there's the difficulty of logic to overcome when suggesting that Christ marries His own body.

I'm going to make this observation. I know the idea will be foreign to you and may require some imagination, but as I said before, the "Body of Christ" is an entirely separate entity from the "Bride of Christ".

Here is why. There are two distinct and separate programs laid out in scripture. One is prophetic and the other is not. In your Bible from Genesis to the Gospel of John and into the first seven chapters of Acts you will find the prophecy concerning the Kingdom of God and its eventual establishment on the earth with Jesus as King. There you will find the Bride of Christ.

The Body of Christ though, has as its destiny heaven. The Body of Christ is an unprophesied entity. We are a part of the "one new man", "the new creature".

The gospel preached by Jesus and then given as a commission to Jesus's disciples is about "the Kingdom of God" on earth.

The "gospel according to the mystery" was given to Paul by Jesus from heaven concerning the "one new man" which is the "Body of Christ" of whom we are members. That gospel is about the heavens and our eventual residency there.

A thumbnail sketch.

But you must also remember that a city must be occupied by many people. A few people only make a village or a town. The New Jerusalem is described as a GREAT CITY.

RJ, I don't think you find New Jerusalem described as a "great city" but as a "holy city" -

"And I saw the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God ..." (21:2)

Babylon is called "Babylon the great" (16:5) and again "Thus will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence ..." (18:21)

Babylon is called "great".
New Jerusalem is called "holy".

God who never lies was not a man at the time that that passage was spoken in [b](Numbers 23:19) . That was before the Word Who was God and with God became flesh (John 1:1,14)

At that time when "the Word became flesh and tabernacle among us" God became a man. And not only did He not lie but He said He was the TRUTH - (John 14:6) .

I thought you believed in the incarnation.

God has never been a man nor will He ever be....unless the bible is full of error? No sir I do not adhere to an incarnation in any way, shape or form.
The Lord our God is One, not three in one, One.
The bible says there is One God and One Lord, Jesus Christ.
James 1:17
7 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
NIV

Mal 3:6
"For I am the Lord, I do not change;
NKJV

Originally posted by Rajk999
Is there another option according to the Bible?

Well, if you want another option, you will find it.

The Instructor

Originally posted by sonship

But you must also remember that a city must be occupied by many people. A few people only make a village or a town. The New Jerusalem is described as a GREAT CITY.

RJ, I don't think you find New Jerusalem described as a "great city" but as a [b]"holy city" -

"And I saw the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven fro b]

Babylon is called [b]"great".
New Jerusalem is called "holy".[/b]

Well, I was going by your own quote from one of your posts on page 2 of this thread. Here is my copy and past of that portion below:

And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God...

That great city seems to be referring to the holy Jerusalem to me, especially since there is no mention of Babylon the great here.

The Instructor

Ephesians 5 can't be used a proof text for the "Body of Christ" to be the "Bride of Christ. Paul here is merely explaining the sanctity of marriage and the interrelationship between husband and wife by making a comparison only. In no way can one make the passage say that the "Body of Christ" is His bride.

I agree that Paul is giving practical advice to husbands and wives. But this is no reason to overlook that he is speaking also of Christ and the church. In fact he plainly informs us that that is his greater burden -

Ephesians 5:31,32 - "For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh.

[b]"This mystery is great, but I speak with regard to Christ and the church" .

Did you notice that ? "I SPEAK WITH REGARD TO CHRIST AND THE CHURCH" So while Paul is offering practical fellowship to husbands and wives he is speaking also of the great mystery of the union between Christ and the church.

It is a mistake to say that "Christ and the church" is nowhere in Paul's concept in chapter 5. The entire Ephesian epistle has a transcendent focused on "Christ and the church".

Then there's the difficulty of logic to overcome when suggesting that Christ marries His own body.

The importance of Paul quoting Genesis about Eve coming OUT of Adam and being brought TO Adam for marriage is precisely the parallel. Adam married only what came OUT of himself as bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh.

In like manner - Christ marries that which comes OUT of Christ by way of His salvation. What came out of His life and is dispensed into the redeemed becomes His match, His counter part.

" ... we are members of His Body. " (v.30) This establishes that the church is His Body and we members in particular.

"For this cause ..." Now Paul goes back over the great principle of Genesis 2:23,24. He alludes to it. He shows that behind the great mystery of marriage is the symbolism of Christ being joined to His church. He quotes Genesis 2:24 And he ends his talk on marriage this way -

"This mystery is great, but I speak with regard to Christ and the church. Nevertheless you also, each one of you, in the same way love your own wife as yourself; and the wife should fear her husband." (vs.32,33)

What is he speaking of ? He is speaking of "Christ and the church" a great mystery first glimpsed in the type of Adam and Eve. Nevertheless, the Christian do the same as regards to human marriage.

There is hardly any way to miss that Paul's transcendent vision over his down to earth practical advice is the theme of Christ and the church - the real and ultimate marriage.

I'm going to make this observation. I know the idea will be foreign to you and may require some imagination, but as I said before, the "Body of Christ" is an entirely separate entity from the "Bride of Christ".

You would have to demonstrate WHY you think that way. Just looking at the passages it appears that they are simply two angles of the one relationship.

A Bride for Christ.
A Body for Christ.
A temple for God.
A tabernacle for God.
A house for God.
A Vine with branches.
Sheep in the Good Shepherd's "One flock" .

These are all allegories emphasizing different angles of one reality.

Here is why. There are two distinct and separate programs laid out in scripture. One is prophetic and the other is not. In your Bible from Genesis to the Gospel of John and into the first seven chapters of Acts you will find the prophecy concerning the Kingdom of God and its eventual establishment on the earth with Jesus as King. There you will find the Bride of Christ.

You do not see PROPHECY being foretold when Jesus said "I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." (Matt. 16:18)

Why is that NOT prophecy ? That is perhaps the greatest prophecy in the New Testament. And it definitely involves Christ's church.

I'll address this in another post on Revelation 19.

The Body of Christ though, has as its destiny heaven.

Where do you see the ultimate destiny of the Body of Christ in heaven ?
I need you scripture proving that the ultimate destiny of the Body of Christ is in the third heavens.

No we can speak of popular concepts which are not very biblical.
I'll wait to see what you support is for this.

The Body of Christ is an unprophesied entity. We are a part of the "one new man", "the new creature".

The Body of Christ is not an unprophesied entity at all.

Paul prophetically predicts how that Body will build up itself in love "until we all arrive".

"And He Himself gave some as apostles and some as prophets ... etc. etc. for the perfecting of the saints unto the work of the ministry,

unto the building up of the Body of Christ, Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a fullgrown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ ..." (Eph. 4:11-13)

This is explaining what Christ has provided with prediction, with prophecy, with foretelling. This is explaining the building up of the Body of Christ with a prophetic foresight into the completion of the maturity. This is also prophecy.

And it is as much prophecy as the corresponding words of Jesus in His mighty prayer to the Father in John 17 -

"I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me ... etc. etc." (John 17:23)

That is petition with prediction. And Paul's word is explanation with prediction. The Body of Christ is definitely a subject of New Testament prophecy thank God, or we might despair.

The gospel preached by Jesus and then given as a commission to Jesus's disciples is about "the Kingdom of God" on earth.

I agree. But I do not see how anything of this negates that the church is the Body of Christ and to be the Bride and Wife of Christ.

Accepting one simply does not mean denying the other. That is a false dichotomy.

The "gospel according to the mystery" was given to Paul by Jesus from heaven concerning the "one new man" which is the "Body of Christ" of whom we are members. That gospel is about the heavens and our eventual residency there.

Now we mention a little about a huge subject - "one new man".

Body of Christ is on one level and speaks of functioning of members in coordination.

One new man speaks of personality. In a sense "one new man" is on a slightly higher level. A Body is for movement. A Man is for personality. So "one new man" is a more exalted view perhaps, of the same corporate entity. This Body becomes a new man with personality.

The "one new man" is on one hand created already in Christ's death on the cross (Eph.2:15).

But on the other hand the "new man" needs to be put on by transformation, sanctification, and conformation -

"That you put off ... the old man, which is being corrupted according to the lust of the deceit, And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind and put on the new man, which was created according to God in righteousness and holiness of the reality." (Eph. 4:22-24)

By the continual renewing of the mind the Christians "put off ... the old man" and "put on ... the new man" .

That "new man" that put on through life long mind renewing IS the "one new man" of Christ's creation.

Also in Colossians, through transformation and perfecting the saints put on the "new man" which is the "one new man" -

"And have put on the new man, which is being renewed unto full knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, Where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free man, but Christ is all and in all." (Col. 3:11)

In the local churches we have the confidence to proclaim that we are being built up into the Body and into "one new man" where there cannot be divisions along old lines of the fallen Adamic nature. Some Christians lack the confidence to affirm this because they may be scattered in divisions. Their experience may be lacking. But this does not change the truth of the New Testament.

Incidently, Paul also specifically says that the Body IS the church in Colossians 1:18.

"And He is the Head of the Body, the church ..." .

Originally posted by RJHinds
Well, I was going by your own quote from one of your posts on page 2 of this thread. Here is my copy and past of that portion below:

[b]And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God...

That great city seems to be referring to the holy Jerusalem to me, especially since there is no mention of Babylon the great here.

The Instructor[/b]

If I wrote that than I stand corrected. I am not above typos.

I'll have to check what I wrote. However the Recovery Version has it as -

"And he carried me away in spirit onto a great and high mountain and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God." (21:10)

The MOUNTAIN was "great and high". The city was "holy".

There might be a manuscript out there among the thousands which has the word "great" in relation to the city. But the Nestle text upon which the Recovery Version is based, does not.

If you find one, let me know.

The following translation is from the New King James Version:

Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God.

(Revelation 21:9-11 NKJV)

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
The following translation is from the New King James Version:

[b]Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusa ...[text shortened]... of heaven from God, having the glory of God.

(Revelation 21:9-11 NKJ)

The Instructor[/b]

On page two this was Joseph's quote RJ

And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

And yes, I remember now that KJV does have great city there.

So I gave you heads up. Some manuscript among the thousands might have had "great city" there. You found it.

As you know there do exists some minor descrepancies between the 24,000 some ancient copies of the Greek NT. Some scribe back then DID write "great city".

Point taken.

Originally posted by sonship
On page two this was Joseph's quote RJ

And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

And yes, I remember now that KJV does have great city there.

So I gave you heads up. Some manuscript among the thousands might have had [b]"gr ies of the Greek NT. Some scribe back then DID write [b]"great city".

Point taken.[/b]

That was really only a minor point as to the greatness of the New Jerusalem. My main point was that any city has a lot of people living in it, and so I believe that it will be populated by us believers as part of the city, great or not.

The Instructor