1. Standard membersonship
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    Through Christ’s work in His incarnation not only was God brought into man, but God was also made one with man. Christ has accomplished the great work of making God one with man, of making the two—God and man—one person with two natures, divinity and humanity. How this was accomplished we cannot explain. Nevertheless, the Bible reveals clearly that through Christ’s incarnation God in His divinity was made one with man in humanity. The two essences of divinity and humanity were made into a single entity without a third essence being produced. In this one entity the two essences of divinity and humanity are the original essences. Even after being mingled in the person of the God-man, they are distinct; there is no mixture. God is still God, and man is still man, yet they have become one person, Christ, the God-man, in whom God is one with man. No one can explain this adequately.

    Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit with the divine essence and born of a human virgin with a human essence. We use the word “essence” in a strong sense to denote something even more intrinsic than nature. The essence is the intrinsic constituent of a certain substance. Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit not only with the divine nature but with the divine essence. Therefore, He has two essences, the divine and the human. These two essences were not merely added together; they were mingled together. In the conception of Christ the divine essence and the human essence were mingled.


    It is crucial that we have the proper understanding of the word “mingle” with respect to Christ’s work of bringing God into man and of making God one with man through His incarnation. We definitely do not use this word to mean that the mingling of divinity with humanity in Christ caused a third nature to be produced, something that is neither divine nor human. To say that with respect to the Lord Jesus the mingling of the divine essence and the human essence produced a third nature, a nature that is neither fully human nor divine, is heretical. We agree with the first definition of mingle given in Webster’s unabridged dictionary: “to combine or join (one thing with another, or two or more things together), especially so that the original elements are distinguishable in the combination.” Hence, to mingle is to combine two or more things together so that the original elements remain distinguishable.


    This certainly is the situation regarding Christ as the God-man. Because He was conceived of the divine essence and the human essence, He is the mingling of God and man. But both the divine essence and the human essence remain and are distinguishable. These essences are mingled in Him without producing a third nature. In His one person Christ possesses two essences, and in Him each essence is distinguishable. Therefore, it is altogether accurate to say that the incarnation of Christ was the mingling of God with man. This mingling produced a single person, a divine-human person, the person of the God-man. Although Christ has two essences, He does not have two persons.

    The conception of the God-man was God’s incarnation, constituted not only by the divine power but also of the divine essence mingled with the human essence to produce the God-man. Through this great work accomplished by Christ, God was made one with man so that He might be manifested in the flesh (1 Tim. 3:16).

    The Trinity is a great mystery. The incarnation is also a great mystery. All genuine Christians, all who hold to the common faith (Titus 1:4), must believe in the Triune God and in Christ’s incarnation. Christ is God made one with man. Although He has both divinity and humanity, He is not two persons. Christ is one person with two essences. Although we cannot explain this adequately, we can enjoy Him as the God-man. In incarnation Christ, the embodiment of the Triune God, accomplished the great work of bringing God into man and of making God one with man.


    Further reading http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=229DC5
    (my bolding above)
  2. Standard membersonship
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    02 Jul '13 13:40
    In His incarnation Christ put man in the flesh upon Himself. This man in the flesh may be likened to a garment. Christ put on this “garment” and wore it. Therefore, while He was living and walking on earth, inwardly He was God, and outwardly He was a man in the flesh, for He wore this man as a garment.

    Concerning Christ’s putting on man in the flesh upon Himself, Hebrews 2:14a says, “Since therefore the children have partaken of blood and flesh, He also Himself in like manner shared in the same.” This clearly indicates that Christ became a man in order to partake of blood and flesh. We do not have a Savior who is different in nature from us. No, Christ became exactly the same as we are, except for sin. Christ came in the flesh to be one with us, partaking of blood and flesh.

    Christ’s incarnation means that the very God has become flesh. According to John 1:14, the Word, which is God, became flesh. Why did He become flesh? He became flesh so that He might be the same as we are. We are men of blood and flesh, and Christ partook of the same. Therefore, through incarnation He came as a man to our level. Although Christ is God, He came to our level and shared in our nature.

    First John 4:2 says, “In this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses Jesus Christ having come in the flesh is out of God.” Here “spirit” denotes the spirit of a genuine prophet motivated by the Holy Spirit of truth, which confesses the divine conception of Jesus, affirming that He was born as the Son of God. Every such spirit is surely out of God.

    Jesus was conceived of the Spirit (Matt. 1:18). To confess Jesus coming in the flesh is to confess that He was divinely conceived to be born as the Son of God (Luke 1:31-35). Because He was conceived of the Spirit to be born in the flesh, the Spirit would never deny that He has come in the flesh through divine conception. Truly, through His work in incarnation Christ became a man in the flesh, putting man in the flesh upon Himself.
  3. Standard memberRemoved
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    05 Jul '13 15:39
    Strange god you worship...
  4. Standard memberRemoved
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    05 Jul '13 15:471 edit
    The God I worship is the Creator of the heavens and the earth. He is also the God and Father of The Lord Jesus Christ and is not a man that He should lie.
    Jesus however, is completely a man, sinless, who was crucified for the sins of the world and God raised him from the dead.
    He has been highly exalted to the position as head of his Church and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    Makes a lot more sense to me.
  5. Joined
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    05 Jul '13 16:01
    Originally posted by sonship
    In His incarnation Christ put man in the flesh upon Himself. This man in the flesh may be likened to a garment. Christ put on this “garment” and wore it. Therefore, while He was living and walking on earth, inwardly He was God, and outwardly He was a man in the flesh, for He wore this man as a garment.

    Concerning Christ’s putting on man in the fle ...[text shortened]... incarnation Christ became a man in the flesh, putting man in the flesh upon Himself.
    The problem with all of that is that it is extra-Biblical, and nothing more than a commentary with heavy human interpretive nuances all of which are unnecessary since the scripture gives all the information we need in order to understand what God's will and purposes are.

    In other words, we have the Word of God and the Holy Spirit, we don't need reams of explanations and interpretations by man. The Word of God defines, interprets and explains itself.

    Why else do you think none of us understands the scriptures the same way? Why else is it that there are as many denominations today as there are?

    Instead of allowing the Word of God to say what it says is why!
  6. Standard memberRajk999
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    05 Jul '13 16:38
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    The God I worship is the Creator of the heavens and the earth. He is also the God and Father of The Lord Jesus Christ and is not a man that He should lie.
    Jesus however, is completely a man, sinless, who was crucified for the sins of the world and God raised him from the dead.
    He has been highly exalted to the position as head of his Church and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    Makes a lot more sense to me.
    Well said.
  7. Standard memberRajk999
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    05 Jul '13 17:10
    Some years ago I went after the JWs and I got a lot of flack for it but now I see that its accepted and there are now dozens of anti-JW threads around.

    Now it seens that our friend Jaywill/Sonship is going down the same road as the JWs. He is in a cult started by Watchman Nee or rather an offshoot of that by someone called Witness Lee. He is getting more and more brazen as time goes by and now post long cut and pastes and recommends reading the cult's website. They even have their own version of the Bible called the Recovery Version.

    Rather interesting.
  8. Standard membersonship
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    05 Jul '13 18:144 edits
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    The God I worship is the Creator of the heavens and the earth. He is also the God and Father of The Lord Jesus Christ and is not a man that He should lie.
    Jesus however, is completely a man, sinless, who was crucified for the sins of the world and God raised him from the dead.
    He has been highly exalted to the position as head of his Church and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    Makes a lot more sense to me.
    The God I worship is the Creator of the heavens and the earth. He is also the God and Father of The Lord Jesus Christ and is not a man that He should lie.


    God who never lies was not a man at the time that that passage was spoken in (Numbers 23:19) . That was before the Word Who was God and with God became flesh (John 1:1,14)

    At that time when "the Word became flesh and tabernacle among us" God became a man. And not only did He not lie but He said He was the TRUTH - (John 14:6) .

    I thought you believed in the incarnation.


    Jesus however, is completely a man, sinless, who was crucified for the sins of the world and God raised him from the dead.

    He has been highly exalted to the position as head of his Church and is seated at the right hand of the Father.


    Amen. And He is also God become a man. It is not that I believe anything extra. Some people simply seem not to believe enough.

    Of course nothing of what you have said above negates that God went through a kind of process in which He was incarnated as a man - "the Word became flesh and tabernacle among us." (John 1:14)

    Neither Christ being "completely a man" or being "sinless, crucified for the sins of the world" or "raised him from the dead" is a cause NOT to believe that "the Word became flesh" (John 1:14)
    .

    He has been highly exalted to the position as head of his Church and is seated at the right hand of the Father.


    Amen to these truths also. Of course none of this causes a negation that "the Word became flesh" (John 1:14) And that Word was God as well as with God (John 1:1)

    Better still, none of what you mention negates that "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" to dispense the Triune God into His redeemed people.

    http://an-open-letter.org/
  9. Standard membersonship
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    05 Jul '13 18:283 edits
    Originally posted by josephw
    The problem with all of that is that it is extra-Biblical, and nothing more than a commentary with heavy human interpretive nuances all of which are unnecessary since the scripture gives all the information we need in order to understand what God's will and purposes are.

    In other words, we have the Word of God and the Holy Spirit, we don't need reams of e Instead of allowing the Word of God to say what it says is why!
    The problem with all of that is that it is extra-Biblical,


    Please point out what I wrote which is "extra-biblical."


    and nothing more than a commentary with heavy human interpretive nuances all of which are unnecessary since the scripture gives all the information we need in order to understand what God's will and purposes are.


    What you should pay attention to is not the style of expression but whether or not it is true according to the Scripture.

    If you think you can point out something that CANNOT be substantiated from Scripture, you should do that and tell me WHY. Just saying that something doesn't seem to have a traditional flavor of expression is inadequate.


    In other words, we have the Word of God and the Holy Spirit, we don't need reams of explanations and interpretations by man. The Word of God defines, interprets and explains itself.


    We don't need it when someone besides yourself provides explanation ? Is that what you are saying.

    If you have specific problems with anything written above, identify it in detail. Getting past some typical jargon that you may be expecting to hear, you will be shown that you have no case that the paragraphs are extra-biblical.

    Maybe you just are not use to hearing certain things expressed in the way they were expressed. I believe in the Holy Spirit's enlightenment too. I do not insist that it has to be "the Holy Spirit with a traditional flavor."


    Why else do you think none of us understands the scriptures the same way? Why else is it that there are as many denominations today as there are?


    I didn't assume that "none of us understands the scripture the same way". I might agree that understanding Christians may express things differently. That is OK.


    Instead of allowing the Word of God to say what it says is why!


    Are you or are you not going to specifically point out what was written by me that does not find thorough foundation in the Holy Bible ?

    Where is your problem with the paragraphs written ? That is my question. WHERE is your problem other than a vague disgruntled quip that you never quite heard God's economy expressed like that ?

    I am opened to examine with you where you think there is an extra-biblical problem. Can you point one out ?

    http://an-open-letter.org/
  10. Standard membersonship
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    05 Jul '13 18:364 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    [b]Some years ago I went after the JWs and I got a lot of flack for it but now I see that its accepted and there are now dozens of anti-JW threads around.

    Now it seens that our friend Jaywill/Sonship is going down the same road as the JWs. He is in a cult started by Watchman Nee or rather an offshoot of that by someone called Witness Lee. He is getting more even have their own version of the Bible called the Recovery Version.
    Positive testimonials countering Rajk999's vague and slanderous accusations:

    http://an-open-letter.org/testimonies/
  11. Standard memberRajk999
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    05 Jul '13 18:591 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    Positive testimonials countering Rajk999's vague and slanderous accusations:

    http://an-open-letter.org/testimonies/
    I never read past two paragraphs of your posts and never open your links.
    Are those testimonials from Jesus Christ ? No ? Not interested then.

    Im considering making you my project for the next few months. Will do some research and see what comes up about witness less. Facebook has something on sonship and jaywill .
  12. Standard membersonship
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    05 Jul '13 19:234 edits
    Norman Geisler and Ron Rhodes criticize the local churches' usage of the word "mingling" in speaking of the incarnation of Christ. And they receive reply from Christian co-workers among us about our using this term.

    The Error of Denying That the Infinite God Became a Finite Man through Incarnation - A Response to Norman Geisler and Ron Rhodes’ Defense of the “Open Letter” and Critique of the Christian Research Journal’s Reassessment of the Local Churches


    http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/Geisler-Rhodes/infinite-God-finite-man.html
  13. Standard memberRemoved
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    05 Jul '13 19:52
    Originally posted by sonship
    The God I worship is the Creator of the heavens and the earth. He is also the God and Father of The Lord Jesus Christ and is not a man that He should lie.


    God who never lies was not a man at the time that that passage was spoken in [b](Numbers 23:19)
    . That was before the Word Who was God and with God became flesh (John 1:1,14) [ ...[text shortened]... the Triune God into His redeemed people.

    http://an-open-letter.org/
    God who never lies was not a man at the time that that passage was spoken in (Numbers 23:19) . That was before the Word Who was God and with God became flesh (John 1:1,14)

    Well sir, my bible says he never changes...He has never been a man, nor will He ever be. I am out of town and don't have my pcstudybible with me, but I know the verse is in there where it says He does not change.
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    05 Jul '13 20:05
    Originally posted by sonship
    The problem with all of that is that it is extra-Biblical,


    Please point out what I wrote which is "extra-biblical."

    [quote]
    and nothing more than a commentary with heavy human interpretive nuances all of which are unnecessary since the scripture gives all the information we need in order to understand what God's will and purposes a ...[text shortened]... ical problem. Can you point one out ?

    http://an-open-letter.org/
    "Please point out what I wrote which is "extra-biblical." "

    I will only reply to this statement and disregard the rest so as to make my point pointedly clear. The following statement for example:

    Through Christ’s work in His incarnation not only was God brought into man, but God was also made one with man. Christ has accomplished the great work of making God one with man,..

    It's twisted. "God...made one with man" is not a scriptural concept, it falls short of what is taught by God's Word concerning our union with God in Christ.

    There is one more thing. In the statement I quoted above it is said that "through Christ's work in His incarnation..." ; an idea I find most troubling, since it was His work on the cross that accomplished anything in relation to our union with God.

    Am I clear?

    We must adhere to a strick Biblical narrative if we hope to know what God is telling us, otherwise we fall into error.
  15. Standard membersonship
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    05 Jul '13 21:321 edit
    Originally posted by josephw
    [b]"Please point out what I wrote which is "extra-biblical." "
    Am I clear?


    No, you are not clear to me yet. I am not sure if you are criticizing the writing on the Incarnation of Christ or the full salvation of the believers in Christ, or both.

    So I will briefly respond to both possibilities.

    First concerning the Incarnation of Christ as a man.


    I will only reply to this statement and disregard the rest so as to make my point pointedly clear. The following statement for example:

    Through Christ’s work in His incarnation not only was God brought into man, but God was also made one with man. Christ has accomplished the great work of making God one with man,..

    It's twisted. "God...made one with man" is not a scriptural concept, it falls short of what is taught by God's Word concerning our union with God in Christ.


    God made one with man is a scriptural concept in incarnation, or you don't really believe in incarnation.

    When the Bible says in Isaiah 9:6 that the "child born" has the name "Mighty God" is that not God made one with man ?

    Are you saying that for the Word to become flesh in John 1:14 was not for God to be made one with man ? How then did the Word become flesh but not become man ?

    I affirm the following -

    •Christ, the only begotten Son of God (John 1:18; 3:16), even God Himself (John 1:1), became a genuine man through incarnation (John 1:14), having both the divine and human natures (Rom. 9:5; 1 Tim. 2:5), the two natures being combined in one person and being preserved distinctly without confusion or change and without forming a third nature;


    Concerning Christ dispensing God into man, is that not God becoming one with man ?

    If the church is "the Body of Christ" and Christ is "God manifest in the flesh" then the church is God made one with man.

    The end of the process of being conformed to His image reproduces many sons of God as brothers of the Firstborn Son -

    "Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers ..." (Romans 8:29)

    1.) Christ is God become a man and the saved are being conformed to the image of the Son, then why is not the end result of the process of conformation that God is one with man ?

    2.) If Paul meant that only by Christ incarnation that we are conformed to the image of His Son, then why is there a need to be "conformed" ?

    I think it is quite obviously scriptural that in being joined to the Lord (1 Cor. 6:17) our human spirit is made "one spirit" with the Lord. And at the end of the process of transformation and conformation we arrive to be "like Him" [b](1 John 3:2)

    Either Christ is not God made one with man and us being like Him is therefore our not being made one with God.

    Or is God made one with man but we will not be like Him.

    I don't know which unbiblical teaching you support. But I believe both - Christ is God made one with man on one hand, and the end result of His full salvation is that we the saved are made "like Him" . So the church becomes a collective manifestation of God made one with man.

    While I am in the process of sanctification. God certainly has been made one with one part of my being already - my regenerated human spirit for - "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 3:6)

    Are you teaching that the Lord Jesus is not God ?

    Or are you teaching that He is not joined to me to be one spirit with me ?

    Or you teaching that to be "one spirit" with the Lord Spirit is not for God to be made one with man ?



    There is one more thing. In the statement I quoted above it is said that "through Christ's work in His incarnation..." ; an idea I find most troubling, since it was His work on the cross that accomplished anything in relation to our union with God.


    I find your stumbling at this rather ridiculous. Christ's WORK includes His being incarnation, and thirty three and one half years of living, and His death on the cross, and His resurrection too.

    While He was living He was preparing for us a perfect humanity for our living as well. That is why as the last Adam who became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45) all that He is is prepared to be imparted into us that we may be perfected in Him.

    Do you not think that "the bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:19) includes all the riches of His human living ? I definitely include in this "bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ" includes all of what He accomplished in incarnation, human living, death and resurrection.

    I do not mean we Christians can accomplish eternal redemption or that we can shed our blood for anyone's sins.

    But Paul definitely identified the one body of Christ as "the Christ" -

    "For even as the body is one and has many members, yet all the members of the body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ." (1 Cor. 12:12)

    Notice carefully that Paul said "so also is THE CHRIST". We might have expected Paul to say "so also is the church" or "so also is the body of Christ". But here he says "so also is the Christ" making an utter identification of the church, the body of Christ with Christ Himself.

    Rather than dumb down the teaching to excuse for poor experience we should rather stand by faith all the more on the truth. We should embrace the truth in faith rather than reject it as "troubling."

    Christ is certainly God made one with man and the body of Christ, the church is " the Christ " (1 Cor. 12:12) [b]. So how cannot the church be a corporate expression of God made one with man ?

    One more thing. If you object to Christ's incarnation as being Christ's work, I think you should not object. [b] Hebrews
    says that Christ taking on the human body prepared for Him was certainly a part of God's will and therefore work that Christ did on behalf of God -

    "Therefore, coming into the world, He says, sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me." (Hebrews 10:4)

    Taking on the human nature and human body which God prepared for Christ was part of Christ's doing the will of the Father -

    "I come [including taking His prepared body) to do You will." He takes away the first that He may establish the second, By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all." (Hebrews 10:10)

    I see no reason to restrict the work of Christ to JUST His redemptive death and not also to His incarnation and human living.


    We must adhere to a strick Biblical narrative if we hope to know what God is telling us, otherwise we fall into error.


    I think you have come close to falling into error in your criticism.
    Your errors could very well be not believing that incarnation caused God to become one with man. Your error could be that you do not believe that to be made "one spirit" with the Lord Jesus is God making Himself one with at least one part of the Christian's being for a start. A further error from you could be your staggering that the church as the body of Christ is "the Christ" . And a further possible error is your not acknowledging that Christ's incarnation and human living were part of the work or will of God which Christ came to do.
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