13 Jun 19
@philokalia saidThis is true, but I am still hopeful my good morals will survive your bad company.
1 Corinthians 15:33 ESV
“Bad company ruins good morals.”
13 Jun 19
@fmf saidLol, I'm not going to write my responses to things in a boring, formal fashion just because you think you can read into them too far.
You felt a non-Christian was "hitting" you? Gosh. OK, you are obviously feeling a bit besieged and paranoid. So I will say this: if Ghost of a Duke comes along and indicates that he DID quote Ephesians 4:2 and Romans 14:1-4 in order to try to stop you from posting or he was trying to curtail your right to express yourself in some way, I will stand corrected and apologize to you.
Buzz off.
13 Jun 19
@ghost-of-a-duke said
This is true, but I am still hopeful my good morals will survive your bad company.
13 Jun 19
@philokalia saidSorry, but you have simply failed to understand the deeper meaning of Romans 14:1-4. (The dietary 'example' has far greater ramifications). Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another?!
And it is true, we must interact with people in humility and gentleness, particularly those who are among us in our Church, and it is also true that for something like dietary disagreements we are not to think of someone as an utter alien to us.
But what of homosexuality.
It's clear what the Bible says.
And you are right, it 'IS' clear what the Bible is saying,....but it's not what 'you' are hearing.
13 Jun 19
@philokalia saidPost as you see fit. But the question remains, why do so many Christians here post in such an embattled and seemingly insecure way.
Lol, I'm not going to write my responses to things in a boring, formal fashion just because you think you can read into them too far.
Buzz off.
13 Jun 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidLet us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Sorry, but you have simply failed to understand the deeper meaning of Romans 14:1-4. (The dietary 'example' has far greater ramifications). Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another?!
And you are right, it 'IS' clear what the Bible is saying,....but it's not what 'you' are hearing.
Romans 14:13 KJV
Sure.
And....
2 Timothy 3:5 ESV
Having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.
2 Corinthians 6:14 ESV
Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?
....
And we know the Bibles ideas on sexual morality.
@philokalia saidNot sure why you keep diverting into 'unbelievers.' If you think non-heterosexuals have automatically abandoned God then you really have failed miserably to grasp the issue.
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Romans 14:13 KJV
Sure.
And....
2 Timothy 3:5 ESV
Having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.
2 Corinthians 6:14 ESV
Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For wha ...[text shortened]... at fellowship has light with darkness?
....
And we know the Bibles ideas on sexual morality.
You are right of course. It really shouldn't take an atheist to point out to you the importance of tolerance and love found in your own scripture. By showing intolerance and a lack of understanding it is actually you putting an ungodly stumblingblock in your brother's path.
@philokalia saidSo we have already been subjected to the worst homophobic rantings of people who lived thousands of years ago, and if that's all it takes I hereby dismiss their validity and relevance to today's more scientifically savvy and enlightened world. There, that was easy.
Aw, but you see:
- The passages about homosexuality in the Old & New Testament have already been brought up and addressed, and no one has dismissed their validity.
- The approach of commenters here was to make it sound like you shouldn't be critical of homosexuality. Rather, you should be unconditionally welcoming and perhaps just not mention it.
- I ...[text shortened]... is the Christian tradition as it is present in Orthodoxy.
It is the oldest Christian tradition.
And of course one should not be critical of homosexuality, any more than one should be critical of the colour of a persons' eyes; which part of your brain is preventing you from understanding this? You appear to have an intellectual blockage in this regard, and I am happy to use myself as a case in point;
I am; about 1.8m (six feet) tall, have blue eyes and am heterosexual. I did not sit down in a shady nook one day in my early teens and decide upon my sexuality, or whether I should change my eye colour or end up a bit taller. My favourite sports are cricket and Rugby Union, and I don't eat meat or fish; these last two facets of myself are my choice, do you see the difference?
If not then I suggest you buy some industrial drain - cleaner (make that brain - cleaner) and a rubber plunger and see if that does the trick....
And as for 'accurately and fully' reporting on and discussing your sex life with your 'spiritual father', you do what...???
13 Jun 19
@philokalia saidThis is the problem with people claiming all the answers are in the Bible. No, their answers are in their interpretation of the Bible. When you were looking through John 8 looking for something to condemn, did you not notice Jesus himself telling her "Neither do I condemn thee"? No, because if you did, and gave it more than lip service, you'd see that our condemnation is not necessary, nor helpful.
Yeah, he says sin no more in that pericope whose veracity is commonly doubted.
He did not say continue in adultery. He said sin no more.
This would seem to jive with the fact that homosexuality is repeatedly conedmned in the New Testament, just as adultery is, and that passage would tell us clearly...
While Old Testament laws are not to be punished with Old Testament means, the moral basis of these laws was not incorrect.
14 Jun 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidA repentant person who experiences same-sex attraction? Of course they are welcome into the church.
Not sure why you keep diverting into 'unbelievers.' If you think non-heterosexuals have automatically abandoned God then you really have failed miserably to grasp the issue.
You are right of course. It really shouldn't take an atheist to point out to you the importance of tolerance and love found in your own scripture. By showing intolerance and a lack of understanding it is actually you putting an ungodly stumblingblock in your brother's path.
However, they must repent of their sins.
Just like an alcoholic who has had a relapse is welcome.
We are all sinners.
However, if you do not repent of your sins and instead insist that they are valid, you are a heretic.
@indonesia-phil said(1) "Homophobia" is a made up word designed to pathologize the political opponents of the LGBTQ+ agenda.
So we have already been subjected to the worst homophobic rantings of people who lived thousands of years ago, and if that's all it takes I hereby dismiss their validity and relevance to today's more scientifically savvy and enlightened world. There, that was easy.
And of course one should not be critical of homosexuality, any more than one should be critical of the ...[text shortened]... and fully' reporting on and discussing your sex life with your 'spiritual father', you do what...???
(2) We do not decide our sexual attractions easily. Sometimes we have to rage against our urges and instincts. In fact, this is the nature of much of sin, especially pride.
We all have the ability to choose to live the way that we want to.
(3) Christ tells us to confess our sins -- "Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective" (James 5:16).
We should confess our sins to our spiritual fathers. Of course, it is also good to talk about these things with other compatriots.
@philokalia saidCan one just rationalize "sin", in your view, instead of repenting? If one were to rationalize "fornication" for example, by arguing that it's OK to do it for reason X, Y or Z or because so-and-so said it was OK, does that mean repentance is not necessary? If one repents but just continues doing it, how does that work? Under what circumstances do you believe such a "sinner" is and is not "welcome into the church" or is it a "sin" that isn't affected by the exhortation to "sin no more"?
A repentant person who experiences same-sex attraction? Of course they are welcome into the church.
However, they must repent of their sins.
Just like an alcoholic who has had a relapse is welcome.
We are all sinners.
However, if you do not repent of your sins and instead insist that they are valid, you are a heretic.
14 Jun 19
@suzianne saidRight:
This is the problem with people claiming all the answers are in the Bible. No, their answers are in their interpretation of the Bible. When you were looking through John 8 looking for something to condemn, did you not notice Jesus himself telling her "Neither do I condemn thee"? No, because if you did, and gave it more than lip service, you'd see that our condemnation is not necessary, nor helpful.
condemn
κατακρίνω (katakrinō)
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 1st Person Singular
Strong's Greek 2632: To condemn, judge worthy of punishment. From kata and krino; to judge against, i.e. Sentence.
( https://biblehub.com/john/8-11.htm )
He was forgiving her, and not condemning her. He was not saying that her sin was irrelevant, hence sin no more.
14 Jun 19
@philokalia saidDo you believe that there is no such thing as a homosexual and that all people are, instead, heterosexuals - only some of them do "perverted" things that is referred to as "homosexuality"?
We do not decide our sexual attractions easily. Sometimes we have to rage against our urges and instincts. In fact, this is the nature of much of sin, especially pride.
14 Jun 19
@fmf saidOh yes, such a condition exists. Such a condition where same sex attraction is absolutely preferred, and not erasable by anything remotely resembling normal means, also seems to exist.
Do you believe that there is no such thing as a homosexual and that all people are, instead, heterosexuals - only some of them do "perverted" things that is referred to as "homosexuality"?
However, just like being an alcoholic, it is something that you can choose to not be.
Some people overcome alcoholism when they turn 30 and just hate having 2-day hangovers. Others overcome it through very, very controlled and conscientious moderation and altering many behaviors.
Some people can only overcome it through absolute and total abstinence and never touching a drop of the stuff.
I see a parallel here, because our sexuality is, to some degree, fluid. So, too, our other vices have aspects that are fluid.
One of the men I have cited here -- perhaps more than any other -- was homosexual (Fr. Seraphim Rose) but never partook in the activities after becoming Orthodox in 1956.