1. Melbourne, Australia
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    13 Mar '13 03:31
    As I see it -
    Meaning is information, pattern, connection. When a sub atomic particle collapses from decoherence and thereby rearranges an atom's qualities, information, connection and patterning has happened. A new holistic resonance has happened in the atom and its properties. There is no brain or sentience anywhere but at this most elementary level of material manifestation a new set of information and its valent, combining outcomes has occurred. A quite mindless but hoilistic meaning state has arisen. Of course that meaning state is later , like now - comprehended by another more complex holistically resonating meaning state, namely us, to describe it. The same process is at work at both levels and all levels in between. Meaning - patterning, connection resonance, information - is thus a qualia substratum of existence and we are swimming in it. Evolution, brains and rocks all "happen" due to it, as do thoughts.
    But the meaning wasn't/ isn't prior at all a linear thing in time i.e. first the meaning then the happening, no, the meaning and the event itself mirror each other ,they both arise with each other in that all important holistic manner.

    Science today is still far too linear in its thinking but it's getting there and its encounter with quantum "stuff-non stuff" has helped a lot. Where was that sub-particle before it appeared? In what state? Everywhere at once perhaps, or nowhere? It appears to appear out of nothing, or mathematical probabilities -uh?. But really it appears out of the immensely potent but "empty" quantum field - well, that's one label. But whatever we call "it", it appears to like meanings - connections, resonances, information holding and passing it on. There is more to life than meets the eye. I think it is good to know this and to be open to it.
  2. Standard memberhakima
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    13 Mar '13 04:53
    Originally posted by Taoman
    ...whatever we call "it", it appears to like meanings - connections, resonances, information holding and passing it on. There is more to life than meets the eye. I think it is good to know this and to be open to it.
    Opening to the knowledge that there is more to life than meets the eye is the threshold to Wisdom, imo. One does not even need to understand the science of what comprises that "more" in order to access that Wisdom.

    Ya Fatah!

    Hakima
  3. Standard memberblack beetle
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    13 Mar '13 05:20
    Originally posted by Taoman
    As I see it -
    Meaning is information, pattern, connection. When a sub atomic particle collapses from decoherence and thereby rearranges an atom's qualities, information, connection and patterning has happened. A new holistic resonance has happened in the atom and its properties. There is no brain or sentience anywhere but at this most elementary level of ma ...[text shortened]... e to life than meets the eye. I think it is good to know this and to be open to it.
    Edit: "Where was that sub-particle before it appeared? In what state? Everywhere at once perhaps, or nowhere? It appears to appear out of nothing, or mathematical probabilities -uh?"

    "It appeared" at the orthogonal spacetime point at which we observed its appearance. We cannot define where it were and in what state prior to our observation. Its undefined to us prior to our observation position is included in the pool of the probabilities that contain all the possible spacetime points at which it could appear during a specific observation of ours😵
  4. Cape Town
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    13 Mar '13 05:28
    Originally posted by Taoman
    As I see it -
    Meaning is information, pattern, connection.
    I see meaning as 'connection of patterns of information'. ie when there is a letter 'A' on the screen it has no meaning, just information, until you connect the pattern to your memory of other 'A's and then derive semantic meaning out of it.
    I also think the concept that particles 'collapse' is an illusion and a misunderstanding of quantum mechanics.
  5. Melbourne, Australia
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    13 Mar '13 05:41
    Originally posted by black beetle
    Edit: "Where was that sub-particle before it appeared? In what state? Everywhere at once perhaps, or nowhere? It appears to appear out of nothing, or mathematical probabilities -uh?"

    "It appeared" at the orthogonal spacetime point at which we observed its appearance. We cannot define where it were and in what state prior to our observation. Its undef ...[text shortened]... e possible spacetime points at which it could appear during a specific observation of ours😵
    Indeed. When we must use words about such, verbal precision with its added perception brings more into view the Completion. Thank you bb.
  6. Melbourne, Australia
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    13 Mar '13 06:082 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I see meaning as 'connection of patterns of information'. ie when there is a letter 'A' on the screen it has no meaning, just information, until you connect the pattern to your memory of other 'A's and then derive semantic meaning out of it.
    I also think the concept that particles 'collapse' is an illusion and a misunderstanding of quantum mechanics.
    Greetings and good wishes to you Mr Whitehead.

    And the memory of the "A" that causes the linking, the further information connection arose out of a myriad previous such events as the concept of "A" arose in the human mind. At some point there was no "A" to connect to, but pre "A" meanings.

    In my view at present, the concept of "A" in the human brain links not linearly but holistically not just to an individual's learning of an alphabet but also to the very basis of language formation in the human genome. And without our reptilian brain emerging so long ago, there would be no substrate to build on. There are indissoluble links no matter how far "back"- (they are operating right now - don't turn off the repitilian part of your brain please, you'll die immediately) - information, connection, resonance etc is at the foundation, from our atoms up.

    I accept the concept of "collapse" is one of many attempts to explain the seemingly contradictory and strange phenomena at that level. Decoherence is but one of the ways that tries to avoid the possibillty or necessity of the necessary involvment of human mentation (observer effect) explaining the manifestation of an actual particle out of a probability waveform (whatever that is in any actuality). Honestly I am not sure, except the old reductionist answers don't ring true anymore for me, so play with a new paradigm, one that seems to link with ancient paths of other sorts that make a lot of sense from another direction..

    I try not to think linearly like that anymore with this stuff at least, (you of course, may) as time and place itself is in question at that level. How does it connect to here and now when the here and now at that level of manifestation has questions as to its inherent self independence? Time and space itself needs to have its context it appears to me too. Einstein's relativity began the trail leading into the quantum forest and down the rabbit hole. Reductionist science shouts 'we are out', but methinks not yet.
  7. Melbourne, Australia
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    13 Mar '13 06:18
    Originally posted by hakima
    Opening to the knowledge that there is more to life than meets the eye is the threshold to Wisdom, imo. One does not even need to understand the science of what comprises that "more" in order to access that Wisdom.

    Ya Fatah!

    Hakima
    Thank you Hakima. I have not encountered 'Ya Fatah' before. It is an Islamic phrase?
  8. Standard memberblack beetle
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    13 Mar '13 06:27
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I see meaning as 'connection of patterns of information'. ie when there is a letter 'A' on the screen it has no meaning, just information, until you connect the pattern to your memory of other 'A's and then derive semantic meaning out of it.
    I also think the concept that particles 'collapse' is an illusion and a misunderstanding of quantum mechanics.
    Edit: "I also think the concept that particles 'collapse' is an illusion and a misunderstanding of quantum mechanics."

    It is a case of attribution of the fundamental description of unobserved reality to a mind-only (mathematical) realm of potential existence. For each possibility that is contained in the realm of potentiality, the formula asigns a probability that will be manifested when the system is measured. The wf is simply the mathematical description of potential existence, and we use it for our convenience when we want to describe the outcomes of specific experiments😵
  9. Cape Town
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    13 Mar '13 07:30
    Originally posted by Taoman
    Decoherence is but one of the ways that tries to avoid the possibillty or necessity of the necessary involvment of human mentation (observer effect) explaining the manifestation of an actual particle out of a probability waveform (whatever that is in any actuality).
    The involvement of human mentation was never a necessary involvement and the belief that it was came about through misunderstanding by egoistic lay people of what it means to 'observe'.
  10. Standard memberblack beetle
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    13 Mar '13 08:37
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    The involvement of human mentation was never a necessary involvement and the belief that it was came about through misunderstanding by egoistic lay people of what it means to 'observe'.
    Yes, our formulas themselves (a mind-only product of the human mind) do not include the observer "human mentation".

    However, methinks you misunderstand Taoman. He simply says that We, the human beings, are necessarily involved (our consciousness is involved, that is) whenever We observe the quantum systems in question.
    This is properly said, for we do Our observation by means of Maths and Physics -by means of the formulas we use in order to conduct our experiments and in order to describe their outcomes.

    Mind you, all our mathematical formulas are nothing but a specific language we are using in order to state mathematically a "specific question" as regards a "specific system" that We want to have it observed by Our consciousness by means of using a product of Our mind -and this product is those formulas.
    It follows that, anytime, the outcomes of our experiments are fully dependend on the mind-only frame of these formulas, in other words: The "specific answers" we get, are fully dependend on the "specific questions" we posed. Without the involvement of our consiousness at this level, we would be unable to pose these "questions" and we would be unable to receive the "answers" we get😵
  11. Cape Town
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    13 Mar '13 09:14
    Originally posted by black beetle
    However, methinks you misunderstand Taoman. He simply says that We, the human beings, are necessarily involved (our consciousness is involved, that is) whenever We observe the quantum systems in question.
    This is properly said, for we do Our observation by means of Maths and Physics -by means of the formulas we use in order to conduct our experiments a ...[text shortened]... nable to pose these "questions" and we would be unable to receive the "answers" we get😵
    No, I am not misunderstanding. Quantum interference occurs whether or not you have the necessary mathematical knowledge and whether or not you directly observe it happening or interpret it as such.
    Light travels as a wave. This is a quantum phenomena. When light is refracted by glass, for example, this is a quantum phenomena. It doesn't need your mind or your mathematics to observe that this is a quantum phenomena for it to happen. En electron orbiting the atom, is a quantum phenomena. If what you say is to be believed, then atoms can only exist if some scientist is working out the formulas.
    To give conciousness some special place in the whole thing is egoistic and a total misunderstanding of the phenomena in question.
  12. Standard memberblack beetle
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    13 Mar '13 10:40
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    No, I am not misunderstanding. Quantum interference occurs whether or not you have the necessary mathematical knowledge and whether or not you directly observe it happening or interpret it as such.
    Light travels as a wave. This is a quantum phenomena. When light is refracted by glass, for example, this is a quantum phenomena. It doesn't need your mind or ...[text shortened]... place in the whole thing is egoistic and a total misunderstanding of the phenomena in question.
    You say that "Quantum interference occurs whether or not you have the necessary mathematical knowledge and whether or not you directly observe it happening or interpret it as such". Well, kindly please explain which way and by what means are You able to know that such a thing takes place prior to Your observation that such a thing takes place;

    You say: "Light travels as a wave. This is a quantum phenomena. When light is refracted by glass, for example, this is a quantum phenomena."
    Kindly please explain which way are You able even to state that "Light travels..." prior to Your observation that "Light travels..."

    You say: "It doesn't need your mind or your mathematics to observe that this is a quantum phenomena for it to happen. En electron orbiting the atom, is a quantum phenomena."
    Now kindly please explain how are you able to confirm (of course solely after having observed with your consciousness the quantum phenomena again and again by means of specific mathematical formulas so that their mind-only existence is at last a part of your knowledge) that the quantum phenomena happen, without using Your knowledge as regards this matter, a knowledge that is of course a part of Your consciousness;

    Finally, kindly please explain me (explain to My consciousness, that is) "the phenomena in question" without using Your consiousness😵
  13. Cape Town
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    13 Mar '13 10:51
    Originally posted by black beetle
    Now kindly please explain how are you able to confirm (of course solely after having observed with your consciousness the quantum phenomena again and again by means of specific mathematical formulas so that their mind-only existence is at last a part of your knowledge) that the quantum phenomena happen, without using Your knowledge as regards this matter, a knowledge that is of course a part of Your consciousness;
    I have two main points:
    1. You were aware of light, and aware that it travelled as a wave, long before you even heard the words 'quantum mechanics'. When you were a baby and light first entered your eye, that was a quantum effect.
    2. Quantum effects to not happen when you observe them. They happen before you observe them. So, for example, if you eat a cabbage. The cabbage contains sugars, made by chlorophyll using sunlight, and the sunlight is a quantum effect. So although you 'observe' that light via the cabbage, the actual quantum effect may have taken place last year when the cabbage was growing. Whereas you appear to be saying: 'the photons could not have travelled as waves to the cabbage unless I observed them and understood quantum mechanics'.
  14. Standard memberblack beetle
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    13 Mar '13 11:31
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I have two main points:
    1. You were aware of light, and aware that it travelled as a wave, long before you even heard the words 'quantum mechanics'. When you were a baby and light first entered your eye, that was a quantum effect.
    2. Quantum effects to not happen when you observe them. They happen before you observe them. So, for example, if you eat a c ...[text shortened]... ravelled as waves to the cabbage unless I observed them and understood quantum mechanics'.
    1. The baby is not aware neither of the fact that "light enters its eyes", nor that "that is a quantum effect". These facts become known facts to us solely after we acknowledge them and define them as such, and we can acknowledge them and define them as such solely thanks to our observation alone. Our observation is dependent strictly to our consiousness.

    2. "To eat a cabbage" is a result of a certain mode of your consciousness, it is a Decision, and as such is dependent fully to your consciousness. Furthermore, You know that "the cabbage contains this and that" solely because this is a result of your knowledge (your knowledge is dependent on your consiousness), a result that occurred after your observation of the cabbage. You cannot even define what a cabbage is prior to your observation of this epistemic object. And to talk about “the actual quantum effect that may have taken place etc etc”, it only means that “according to Your knowledge the actual quantum effect may have taken place etc etc”.
    Of course, I am not saying that "the photons could not have travelled as waves to the cabbage unless I observed them and understood quantum mechanics". I say that I cannot comment on photons, on the way they behave under specific circumstances etc, prior to My observation of the photons that will allow my consiousness to create a specific meaning to Me
    😵
  15. Melbourne, Australia
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    13 Mar '13 11:475 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    No, I am not misunderstanding. Quantum interference occurs whether or not you have the necessary mathematical knowledge and whether or not you directly observe it happening or interpret it as such.
    Light travels as a wave. This is a quantum phenomena. When light is refracted by glass, for example, this is a quantum phenomena. It doesn't need your mind or ...[text shortened]... place in the whole thing is egoistic and a total misunderstanding of the phenomena in question.
    I have explored but never been fully convinced of the so-called 'observer effect' as a good explanation, if there is one. It is based still in an A follows B paradigm. It appears to me that decoherence is happening outside of human mentation as well. bb points more to the way I interpret what is 'happening' in the specific experimental set ups - we being 'involved' with the fact that we are already a part of the all interacting quantum context of the conduct of the experiments and interpretation.

    This appears to me to also be reflected in Heisenberg's realization of indeterminancy. The inherent inability to measure both momentum and location at the same time is because the measuring enters and confounds the present quantum moment and its probabilities. I believe that is not the only reason, but I can't explain that further, but I do see a connection..

    As I say, I do not see that human mentation 'causes' collapse. But saying that and agreeing with you to a point, it still doesn't explain why for instance, certain photons participate in the reflection and others with the exact same properties do not. Who or what is choosing which one goes through the glass and which ones do not? I don't actually think anything or anybody is choosing, but it is a property of the global quantum field that includes the object, the light the reflection and the observer making sense with his brain in a quantum gestalt, the one that is ever bringing into existent every moment.

    Likewise, the set up of an experiment and its interpretation happens in a field with non-locality qualities that has been shown to demonstrate effects that imply a state outside of time and space. This is reflected in tunnelling behavior, where impossibly to classical physics, the electron can appear where it shouldn't simply because that there is some probability/possibility of that occurring (shown in the calculation of the wf).

    I believe the field does not HAVE classical properties but is the field out of which the high probability classical properties emerge. This field 'resonates' in constant moment to moment ferment, connecting, informing , holding that information (meaning) in concert with everything else in every other "time" and "place" holistically. It is a holomovement of timeless non-locality which is more akin in its nature to the properties of consciousness, but is NOT a separate consciousness but is reflected in all manifestations of meaning, information, connection etc, sentient and non-sentient. There is information and order in a rock and a hell of a lot of 'energy' in stasis. From one viewpoint a nuclear explosion is a very rapid reorganization, re-patterning and re-informing - a rapid change of meaning.

    Yes, we are here, but as we dig deeper and deeper we apparently disappear into the void of our being - yet we still are. Unlocatable 'wave' and locatable 'particle' as it were, both at each reappearing moment. and its the same for the rocks with no brains at all! Its not regarded as a 'floating world', a 'magic' for nothing in Buddhist/Taoist circles. Some in the old classical scientific world have glimpsed it. They have not disposed of scientific function and mathematical story but rather are better able to understand 'existence' and its manifestation and work within it better. The amazing technology arising out of quantum findings is a testament to that.
    Just sharing how what I know (or think I know) thus far seem to gel together the best way.
    PS I use the term "field" loosely - I must use some epiphet to point to this somewhat indescribable, outside of time and space phenomenon.
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