Miracles

Although I'm an atheist, I believe in miracles. You sexy thing.

Sorry. Just had to sing that.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I am getting tired of hearing the 'belief isn't harmful' nonsense. Belief often is harmful and is never ever neutral. I personally think that giving God undeserved credit for healing is more often than not harmful.

why? and you made a mistake right there. you keep choosing only parts of a statement. my statement is 'belief isn't harmful... as long as..." there a lot of things after "as long as...".
Examples of what can go after "as long as..."

"you don't run into a crowd with a bomb and blow yourself up in the name of god" .
"you don't pray to god you win the lottery but you don't buy any lottery tickets"
"you don't pray to god to win the lottery and you don't get a job because you are going to win the lottery"
"you don't believe men have one less rib."
"you don't believe fossils are planted by satan to mislead us"

tell me what is the harm of believing in something that cannot be proven AS LONG AS you use your reasoning and not your faith when it comes to your actions?

Originally posted by twhitehead
You are contradicting yourself.

[b]we of course have evidence that noah's flood didn't happen or at least it wasn't as impressive as the bible tells us.
Not if it was a miracle. If it violated the laws of physics then all scientific evidence is invalid.

the resurrection of christ isn't the same. since jesus's death we haven't killed another ...[text shortened]... and the easter bunny 😀 just kidding)
"it would be safe" - What does that mean?[/b]

Not if it was a miracle. If it violated the laws of physics then all scientific evidence is invalid.
what laws of physics? newton's? or perhaps einstein's? or maybe the string theory(when/if it is proven)? or maybe Archimedes's physics? every new discovery violates the laws of physics that is why people constantly change them. but of course you wouldn't know anything about evolution, you are programmed in a certain way and cannot admit what you cannot explain.


But we have killed lots and lots of human beings and we know that they do not come back.
well there are plenty of people being declared clinically dead and coming back. but you decided to omit that little fact. not to mention the little difference that they were not freakin sons of god.

"it would be safe" - What does that mean?
"it wouldn't be harmful": is that more convenient for you?


you only choose the occam razor when the simplest explanation is not "it doesn't exist". otherwise you wouldn't have any progress. it is easier to later choose another explanation over "It is a miracle" than over "it does not exist"

Originally posted by twhitehead
If they are not violated then ID is not evidence for a violation! ID is a direct claim of violation, it is a claim that the observed facts can not be explained by the laws of physics.

Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying. Can you be more concrete?

To my knowledge, ID doesn't claim that the observed facts cannot be explained by the laws of physics. It just claims that the result of such laws indicates that such laws of physics (and perhaps also the initial conditions) are 'designed'.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I thought it quite clearly stated that God caused the flood - and unless it was something he planned from before he made the earth one would presume at least a minor miracle is required to initiate it.
And why would you not think it was a miracle? And why would some people go to great lengths to try to show that it was physically possible even though the ...[text shortened]... t comes to the ancient past? Is it the work of the Devil? Just bad luck? Gods intention?

How do you explain that scientists are all so terribly wrong when it comes to the ancient past? Is it the work of the Devil? Just bad luck? Gods intention?

Maybe just bad science.

I wonder if whatever God actually does cannot be considered a miracle anyway. After all, God is a spirit, so anything He does would have to be a supernatural act. We, on the other hand, cannot perform miracles overriding the laws of physics. Maybe that's why people don't believe in God. They say to themselves, "who wants somebody around more powerful than me?" Just a thought. 🙂

Originally posted by kirksey957
I would disagree as I think you are talking about magic and not miracles. There is a difference.

With respect to what is true in the Bible and picking and choosing, I find it more helpful to pick what one finds as meaningful and relevant.

I would disagree as I think you are talking about magic and not miracles. There is a difference.

What do you mean you think I'm talking about magic and not miracles? I know the difference. A miracle is an act that suspends, supersedes, or overrides the laws of physics. Magic is an illusion.

With respect to what is true in the Bible and picking and choosing, I find it more helpful to pick what one finds as meaningful and relevant.

Does that mean you don't find everything in the Bible meaningful and relevant? I think that's a dangerous way of approaching the scriptures. You might end up missing something very important. 😳

Originally posted by josephw
Does that mean you don't find everything in the Bible meaningful and relevant? I think that's a dangerous way of approaching the scriptures. You might end up missing something very important. 😳

Do you find this passage meaningful and relevant?

Then the priest shall again examine the infected article after it has been washed. If the infection
has not changed its appearance, even though it may not have spread, the article is unclean and
shall be destroyed by fire. (Leviticus 13:55)

Being totally honest, how meaningful do you find it (scale of 1 to 20, say)? How relevant do you
honestly find it (1 to 20)?

How does it compare, say, with the parable of the Prodigal Son?

Nemesio

Originally posted by josephw
[b]I would disagree as I think you are talking about magic and not miracles. There is a difference.

What do you mean you think I'm talking about magic and not miracles? I know the difference. A miracle is an act that suspends, supersedes, or overrides the laws of physics. Magic is an illusion.

With respect to what is true in the Bible and pick ...[text shortened]... rous way of approaching the scriptures. You might end up missing something very important. 😳

That is absolutely NOT what a miracle is. A miracle is something that points to God's presence, consolation, and power. It has nothing to do with anything about the laws of physics.


That is correct that I do not find everything in the Bible meaningful or relevant. It may be dangerous in making things important that really aren't.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Yep. That is what you are suggesting isn't it? Why should we think anything else?

PS. obviously I don't think he was resurrected in the first place.

I don't think he got lucky obviously , but on one level one could say that the ressurection didn't contravene the laws of physics because within the laws of physics (quantum at least) remains the possibility for unlikely events to occur.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I don't think he got lucky obviously , but on one level one could say that the ressurection didn't contravene the laws of physics because within the laws of physics (quantum at least) remains the possibility for unlikely events to occur.

When starved of oxygen for longer than a few minutes, the brain begins to die. When starved
of oxygen for longer than twenty minutes, the whole body dies. Decay begins within minutes
of death. So, how could Jesus' being dead and raised not be a violation of the laws of physics?

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
Do you find this passage meaningful and relevant?

Then the priest shall again examine the infected article after it has been washed. If the infection
has not changed its appearance, even though it may not have spread, the article is unclean and
shall be destroyed by fire. (Leviticus 13:55)

Being totally honest, how meaningful do you find it ( ...[text shortened]... find it (1 to 20)?

How does it compare, say, with the parable of the Prodigal Son?

Nemesio

20 and 20. Quantitatively.

Of course, the prodigal son parable has greater qualitative value because it speaks to us on a more personal level.

There are verses and passages of scripture that are of extreme importance and therefor have greater relevance. But all this has nothing to do with the intent of my post in response to kirksey.

Originally posted by kirksey957
That is absolutely NOT what a miracle is. A miracle is something that points to God's presence, consolation, and power. It has nothing to do with anything about the laws of physics.


That is correct that I do not find everything in the Bible meaningful or relevant. It may be dangerous in making things important that really aren't.

A miracle is something that points to God's presence, consolation, and power.

Like the resurrection of Jesus?

You have, in my opinion, given a description of a miracle from a subjective perspective. But objectively, a miracle is an event that would not occur unless the natural laws that govern the universe were not superseded.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]A miracle is something that points to God's presence, consolation, and power.

Like the resurrection of Jesus?

You have, in my opinion, given a description of a miracle from a subjective perspective. But objectively, a miracle is an event that would not occur unless the natural laws that govern the universe were not superseded.[/b]

Clearly, it is time for me to preach. Let us suppose that you are a slave in Egypt. Your ancestors have been making bricks for 400 years. You know nothing but oppression and suffering. Along comes a fellow who tells you and your fellow Jews we are gettin the hell out. You have your Passover meal and leave with the others. You get to the sea and discover it is low tide. You are allowed to cross. The timing is just right. The Egyptian army is in hot pursuit, but the timing is not right for them. They perish. You are now free. (To wander in the wilderness for 40 years, but that's another sermon).

Was this a miracle? It is a miracle if you see God's hand in this deliverance. You do not need some damn Hollywood or Steven Spielberg special effects bullcrap to be the defining element of what a miracle is. Low tide works. It ain't fancy, but your oppressed ass is out of Egypt.

So in conclusion, class, a miracle is the meaning you attach to a story and not hocus pocus, magic, or defying reality. Don't put God on the spot by asking Him/Her to be like Steven Spielberg. I don't care if he is a Jew.

Originally posted by josephw
20 and 20. Quantitatively.

Of course, the prodigal son parable has greater qualitative value because it speaks to us on a more personal level.

There are verses and passages of scripture that are of extreme importance and therefor have greater relevance. But all this has nothing to do with the intent of my post in response to kirksey.

Explain to me how this rates a 20 on your meaningfulness scale. Where
is the deep, rich meaning for you?

Explain how it rates a 20 on your relevance scale. How does this passage
affects you deeply in your daily life.

If there are passages that have more relevance (as you state), and
20 is the highest rating, how do you expect your evaluation to be taken
seriously?

Nemesio

Originally posted by kirksey957
Clearly, it is time for me to preach. Let us suppose that you are a slave in Egypt. Your ancestors have been making bricks for 400 years. You know nothing but oppression and suffering. Along comes a fellow who tells you and your fellow Jews we are gettin the hell out. You have your Passover meal and leave with the others. You get to the sea and disc ...[text shortened]... God on the spot by asking Him/Her to be like Steven Spielberg. I don't care if he is a Jew.

Preach on, brotha! Can I have an altar call?