Miracles

Amen!

Originally posted by Nemesio
Preach on, brotha! Can I have an altar call?

Oh, you know it! I would be preachin tonight a sermon about BWA deliverance from the hands of the so-called righteous clans, but that would be kind of sacraligious on this most sacred of days when we remember the last day of Martin Luther King, Jr.

Originally posted by kirksey957
Clearly, it is time for me to preach. Let us suppose that you are a slave in Egypt. Your ancestors have been making bricks for 400 years. You know nothing but oppression and suffering. Along comes a fellow who tells you and your fellow Jews we are gettin the hell out. You have your Passover meal and leave with the others. You get to the sea and disc ...[text shortened]... od on the spot by asking Him/Her to be like Steven Spielberg. I don't care if he is a Jew.

Well, well said!

Magic, to those who believe in it, is not illusion. Stage magicians use sleight of hand to create an illusion. People who think they are witches or sorcerers or whatever believe that their magic is real.

One thing you have done with this little homily is answer my (now unasked) question: “What is a miracle if not magic done by God?” God’s “mighty acts” can just as well be accomplished via natural causes. The Greek word translated as “miracle” is dynamis, which means power or an act of power (whether supernatural or not). In the context of your homily, I will add that it can also mean “meaning” (as in 1st Corinthians 14:11) or “significance”—or an act of power and meaning.

I need to watch myself around you, Kirk, lest one of these days you “re-convert” me! 😉

Originally posted by vistesd
Well, well said!

Magic, to those who believe in it, is not illusion. Stage magicians use sleight of hand to create an illusion. People who think they are witches or sorcerers or whatever believe that their magic is real.

One thing you have done with this little homily is answer my (now unasked) question: “What is a miracle if not magic done by God?” ...[text shortened]... ].

I need to watch myself around you, Kirk, lest one of these days you “re-convert” me! 😉

Well, if that happens, it would be unintentional. As the old spiritual says, "It's me, it's me , Oh Lord, standin in the need of prayer."

In my work I am constantly helping people redefine or reframe what a miracle is. As I am in pentecostal country, I am always hearing that "God is going to heal me from my cancer." I sometimes ask if they don't get their first wish, what is the next best thing God could do for them. It may be that a "miracle" can be a day without pain or maybe reconciling with a wayward kid before they die. Somehow we have been conditioned that a miracle needs to be earth shattering.

I've got this old fellow that I see and he was telling me about his drinking problems when he was younger. He acknowledged that he was an alcoholic. I asked him how he quit and he told me the most unusual story. He said that he was washing his hands in the sink and when he looked up in the mirror he saw himself as a dead man. It terrified him so much that he never drank again after that "vision." I can't explain that, but the interesting thing about this man is that he often feels that God is visiting him when he sees a hawk on the telephone pole across the street. I believe that there is a native American tradition like this. At any rate, he has assigned meaning to both of these events that helps him live more fully.

Originally posted by vistesd
Well, well said!

Magic, to those who believe in it, is not illusion. Stage magicians use sleight of hand to create an illusion. People who think they are witches or sorcerers or whatever believe that their magic is real.

One thing you have done with this little homily is answer my (now unasked) question: “What is a miracle if not magic done by God?” ...[text shortened]... ].

I need to watch myself around you, Kirk, lest one of these days you “re-convert” me! 😉

Even Moses was a magician. Read Exodus, the first part of 4th chapter. A trick worthy of any magician. Even better than David Copperfield in Las Vegas.

Originally posted by kirksey957
Well, if that happens, it would be unintentional. As the old spiritual says, "It's me, it's me , Oh Lord, standin in the need of prayer."

In my work I am constantly helping people redefine or reframe what a miracle is. As I am in pentecostal country, I am always hearing that "God is going to heal me from my cancer." I sometimes ask if they don't get te, he has assigned meaning to both of these events that helps him live more fully.

Yes! We assign meaning. That, I think, is a better way of putting it than my usual “we make meaning” (although that may be implied).

And that seems to be a very deep feature of our very consiousness. And I do not think that that in any way dimishes it—or diminishes the meanings that we perceive or assign. Nor do I think that it is diminished if we, say, assign a different meaning today to a certain circumstance, or Biblical story, than we did the last time around.

That is one of the reasons that the phrase “mere story” is one that I would never use. Story is much more meaningful to me than a simple recitation of perceived facts. To rephrase a saying of the rabbis: We bring our stories to the stories told in the Biblical texts, and from that engagement tell a new story, a more “complete” story. We do the same thing with each other—we share our individual stories, and that sharing, that intertwining, creates a new story that was not there before.

For example, the story of my life now includes Kirksey—and the stories we have shared. The question of whether or not my story was more or less “true” before that is just an absolutely meaningless question. Our personal stories expand with every encounter (even with our four-footed and wingéd friends). From the rabbinical point of view, the true Torah (beyond the written Torah) includes all of those stories. If I exclude myself, the Torah is not complete; if I exclude you, the Torah is not complete.

Perhaps it would not be out of line to say the same for the true Gospel...?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Even Moses was a magician. Read Exodus, the first part of 4th chapter. A trick worthy of any magician. Even better than David Copperfield in Las Vegas.

Point well-taken.

Originally posted by kirksey957
Clearly, it is time for me to preach. Let us suppose that you are a slave in Egypt. Your ancestors have been making bricks for 400 years. You know nothing but oppression and suffering. Along comes a fellow who tells you and your fellow Jews we are gettin the hell out. You have your Passover meal and leave with the others. You get to the sea and disc ...[text shortened]... od on the spot by asking Him/Her to be like Steven Spielberg. I don't care if he is a Jew.

Typical liberal clouding the issue.

So you don't believe in miracles. Jesus didn't heal. The dead weren't really dead when He brought them back to life. The blind didn't receive their sight. The lame didn't walk. A miracle isn't really a miracle. It's only what you want it to be. Heavens, let's not be caught believing God actually intervenes in the affairs of man! That just might cost one his pension. 😕

Originally posted by vistesd
Point well-taken.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
"Even Moses was a magician. Read Exodus, the first part of 4th chapter. A trick worthy of any magician. Even better than David Copperfield in Las Vegas."

Point well-taken?

There is nothing in Exodus 4 that can be taken to mean that what moses was doing was magic. It is described as a sign. The pharaoh's "magicians" duplicated the "signs" that Moses performed by slight of hand. Where on earth did you learn to read the Bible?

Originally posted by josephw
Typical liberal clouding the issue.

So you don't believe in miracles. Jesus didn't heal. The dead weren't really dead when He brought them back to life. The blind didn't receive their sight. The lame didn't walk. A miracle isn't really a miracle. It's only what you want it to be. Heavens, let's not be caught believing God actually intervenes in the affairs of man! That just might cost one his pension. 😕

There are more miracles in my theological world view than yours. But we need not get into a pissing contest on this.

Originally posted by vistesd
Yes! We assign meaning. That, I think, is a better way of putting it than my usual “we make meaning” (although that may be implied).

And that seems to be a very deep feature of our very consiousness. And I do not think that that in any way dimishes it—or diminishes the meanings that we perceive or assign. Nor do I think that it is diminished if ...[text shortened]... is not complete.

Perhaps it would not be out of line to say the same for the true Gospel...?

"Yes! We assign meaning."

That's the problem.

God forbid that truth is objective. Because if it was we would be subject to something greater than ourselves. And how can that be? After all, there is no evidence for a creator.

Originally posted by kirksey957
There are more miracles in my theological world view than yours. But we need not get into a pissing contest on this.

I doubt it!

You say that, but you don't really believe in miracles. If you did you would affirm the record.

If this were a pissing contest you'd win!

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Yes! We assign meaning."

That's the problem.

God forbid that truth is objective. Because if it was we would be subject to something greater than ourselves. And how can that be? After all, there is no evidence for a creator.[/b]

This is reminding me of a story I heard about an Indian who had left the reservation and returned some time later as a devout Christian. He sought to impress upon his village the importance of being converted. Exasperated with his failures to "show them the way" , he made a circle of leaves and put a worm in the center of the circle and then proceeded to set the leaves on fire. The worm went from one side to the other, but there was obviously no escape from the fire. It finally went limp in the center of the circle. At that time the Indian convert picked up the worm and said, "It's like this, you must completely give up in order to be a Christian."

I disagree in that I think the message of the Bible is that God is in a relationship with us where each of us plays a role.

Originally posted by josephw
Originally posted by FabianFnas
[b]"Even Moses was a magician. Read Exodus, the first part of 4th chapter. A trick worthy of any magician. Even better than David Copperfield in Las Vegas."

Point well-taken?

There is nothing in Exodus 4 that can be taken to mean that what moses was doing was magic. It is described as a sign. The pharaoh's "magicia " that Moses performed by slight of hand. Where on earth did you learn to read the Bible?[/b]

You mean my bible is wrong, but your's right? 😵

Originally posted by kirksey957
This is reminding me of a story I heard about an Indian who had left the reservation and returned some time later as a devout Christian. He sought to impress upon his village the importance of being converted. Exasperated with his failures to "show them the way" , he made a circle of leaves and put a worm in the center of the circle and then proceeded t ...[text shortened]... essage of the Bible is that God is in a relationship with us where each of us plays a role.

Okay. What is that role? Who sets the parameters?