1. Joined
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    01 Mar '09 02:085 edits
    Many a time I've had discussions with Christians where I've stated something to the effect of "It hasn't been my experience that Christians are any more moral than non-Christians." I've even stated that on this forum several times and my have even started at thread on it. I don't remember anyone having questioned this assertion. Rather they have discussed possible reasons for it. So on another thread I dropped the "It hasn't been my experience that" simply because it seemed superfluous. It seems that some have now taken exception. They've also thrown out accusations of me presenting "off the cuff pseudo statistics" or some such. Never mind that I never said that my assertion was statistically based, but I digress.

    Anyway, I decided to see if I could find some statistics. In doing so I came across an interesting interview with evangelical George Barna who evidently has a marketing research firm that provides market research for Christian ministries. He says the following:
    "...what we have to be doing is to be thinking over a three-to five-year period of time "How can I expose people to all the elements that Scripture gives us to us that would help us to understand what it means to truly be a Christian?"Not to just understand what it means to be a Christian, but to truly be a Christian, to act like a Christian. When we look at the values, lifestyles, the moral perspective and behaviors of Christians, we can see that there's virtually no difference between Christians and non-Christians."

    In another article he states:
    "...of more than 70 other moral behaviors we study, when we compare Christians to non-Christians we rarely find substantial differences..."

    So it seems that Barna has the stats as well as a vision of Christians getting on with Christians truly being Christian and acting like Christians. Hopefully this would entail actually following the teachings of Jesus which I have been advocating. If so, I say "bravo" to Mr. Barna. Like I've said all along, "The world would be a much better place if people actually followed the teachings of Jesus." Seems like a good place to start would be with Christians.

    The interview is here:
    http://www.homileticsonline.com/subscriber/interviews/barna.asp

    The other article is here:
    http://www.adherents.com/largecom/baptist_divorce.html
  2. SubscriberFMF
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    01 Mar '09 03:15
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Christians [aren't] any more moral than non-Christians.
    It has been my experience that Christians are more often more hypocritical than non-Christians.
  3. Break-twitching
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    01 Mar '09 04:50
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Many a time I've had discussions with Christians where I've stated something to the effect of "It hasn't been my experience that Christians are any more moral than non-Christians." I've even stated that on this forum several times and my have even started at thread on it. I don't remember anyone having questioned this assertion. Rather they have discussed ...[text shortened]... rticle is here:
    http://www.adherents.com/largecom/baptist_divorce.html
    I agree with your post. Most Christians don't TRULY walk-the-walk or talk-the-talk, and I include myself in this. I think one main reason is that more people a drifting away from God, and it is not chic to be a true Christian, only in name. Narrow are the streets to salvation but wide is the path to destruction, and many eagerly seek the path to destruction without really meaning to. Christians, like anybody else, are prone to sin, therefore, we must seek the Lord daily.
  4. Break-twitching
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    01 Mar '09 04:531 edit
    Originally posted by FMF
    It has been my experience that Christians are more often more hypocritical than non-Christians.
    FMF, you are such an astute caligrapher; your clarity on issues facing man cannot be matched, even from pure H20. You soliloquy [sic?] is amazing.
  5. SubscriberFMF
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    01 Mar '09 04:59
    Originally posted by dystoniac
    Most Christians don't TRULY walk-the-walk or talk-the-talk, and I include myself in this.
    I too include you in this. You are perhaps the clearest example out of all the sneering, loudmouth "Christians" lurking on these forums. It seems like more than half your posts are spiteful, insulting and aimed to hurt or smear others with what you think are 'disgusting' accusations or labels. And yet you repeatedly peddle yourself as Jesus's Messenger! You take the biscuit. I posted earlier in this thread specifically with Christians like you in mind. Seems to me to be some moral dereliction involved. No offence intended.
  6. SubscriberFMF
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    01 Mar '09 05:021 edit
    Originally posted by dystoniac
    Except in your case. Not only are are you hypocritically-elitest with your 'academia-scribblings', but you are also accusatory with you ignorant rants.
    The accusation of 'hypocrisy' doesn't stick though. Unless you think you can make it stick? Hypocrisy has a specific meaning. While you gibber incoherently about "Jesus's love" and you "living your life like Jesus", you spout spite, hatred and intolerence almost every time you lay fingers on the keyboard. Therein lies the 'hypocrisy'. What 'hypocrisy' are you accusing me of exactly?
  7. Break-twitching
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    01 Mar '09 05:17
    Originally posted by FMF
    The accusation of 'hypocrisy' doesn't stick though. Unless you think you can make it stick? Hypocrisy has a specific meaning. While you gibber incoherently about "Jesus's love" and you "living your life like Jesus", you spout spite, hatred and intolerence almost every time you lay fingers on the keyboard. Therein lies the 'hypocrisy'. What 'hypocrisy' are you accusing me of exactly?
    Ok...I'm sorry...do you forgive me? I didn't take my meds today because the head "penguin" (nun) in my ward said that I didn't deserv them, so now I'm 'break dancin' across the floor with my spasms...
  8. SubscriberFMF
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    01 Mar '09 05:22
    Originally posted by dystoniac
    Ok...I'm sorry...do you forgive me? I didn't take my meds today because the head "penguin" (nun) in my ward said that I didn't deserv them, so now I'm 'break dancin' across the floor with my spasms...
    What 'hypocrisy' are you accusing me of exactly?
  9. Break-twitching
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    01 Mar '09 05:38
    Originally posted by FMF
    What 'hypocrisy' are you accusing me of exactly?
    I'm not accusing you of hypocracy, really. I apologize for doing so...it's the meds, really. You seem to be sincere..unlike me...have you ever been on lithium?
  10. SubscriberFMF
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    01 Mar '09 05:51
    Originally posted by dystoniac
    I'm not accusing you of hypocracy, really.
    Everyone is a hypocrite, to varying degrees. But you don't know enough about me to know what my hypocisies are. You, however, being a Christian in some sort of outreach mode, set yourself up for a fall, it would seem.
  11. Break-twitching
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    01 Mar '09 08:14
    Originally posted by FMF
    Everyone is a hypocrite, to varying degrees. But you don't know enough about me to know what my hypocisies are. You, however, being a Christian in some sort of outreach mode, set yourself up for a fall, it would seem.
    Is that a picture of you on your avatar?
  12. Illinois
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    01 Mar '09 08:32
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Many a time I've had discussions with Christians where I've stated something to the effect of "It hasn't been my experience that Christians are any more moral than non-Christians." I've even stated that on this forum several times and my have even started at thread on it. I don't remember anyone having questioned this assertion. Rather they have discussed ...[text shortened]... rticle is here:
    http://www.adherents.com/largecom/baptist_divorce.html
    Like I've said all along, "The world would be a much better place if people actually followed the teachings of Jesus."

    I don't remember anyone having any disagreement with you about this point.
  13. SubscriberFMF
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    01 Mar '09 08:56
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    [b]Like I've said all along, "The world would be a much better place if people actually followed the teachings of Jesus."

    I don't remember anyone having any disagreement with you about this point.[/b]
    Some people have gone off on a tangent, attributing manipulative rubbish like the Book of Revelations to "Jesus" too.
  14. Illinois
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    01 Mar '09 10:112 edits
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Many a time I've had discussions with Christians where I've stated something to the effect of "It hasn't been my experience that Christians are any more moral than non-Christians." I've even stated that on this forum several times and my have even started at thread on it. I don't remember anyone having questioned this assertion. Rather they have discussed rticle is here:
    http://www.adherents.com/largecom/baptist_divorce.html
    Barna's quote which seems to suggest that there are no discernible differences between Christians and non-Christians in terms of their moral lives is in reference to the Christian populace in general, which includes those who merely call themselves Christians yet do not know or understand Christian belief nor what it means to be a Christian.

    The Barna Group, distrusting the accuracy of how people label themselves, categorize Christians based on a series of questions. Almost 80% of Americans identify themselves as "Christians", yet Barna's findings show that only 44% of the population are actually "born again". Christians were asked the following questions: (1) have you ever made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in your life today? and (2) what will happen to you after you die? "Born again" individuals will answer "yes" to (1) and respond, "when I die, I will go to Heaven because I have confessed my sins and have accepted Jesus Christ as my savior," to (2).

    Of this 44% who are deemed "born again" there is a significantly smaller category which the Barna group calls the "evangelicals" (note: again, these aren't what the individuals labeled themselves). Evangelicals met the born again criteria (above) plus seven other conditions: (1) their faith is very important in their life today, (2) believe they have a personal responsibility to share their religious beliefs about Christ with non-Christians, (3) believe that Satan exists, (4) believe that eternal salvation is possible only through grace, not works, (5) believe that Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth, (6) assert that the Bible is accurate in all that it teaches, and (7) describe God as the all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect deity who created the universe and still rules it today.

    Only 8% of the population are "evangelicals" according to The Barna Group. This 8%, according to Barna's research, "were the group most likely to follow traditional morality while atheists and agnostics were the faith segment most likely to reject those ways.

    Among evangelicals, profanity (16% ) and pornography (12% ) were the most common transgressions. Fewer than 5% of evangelicals had engaged in gossip (4% ), inappropriate sex (3% ), gambling (2% ), lying (1% ) or drunkenness (less than one-half of one percent).

    In contrast, among skeptics (atheists and agnostics) participation in the eight behaviors ranged from a low of 11% (retaliating) up to a high of 60% (using profanity). While evangelicals averaged 6% participation in each of the eight behaviors mentioned, skeptics averaged five times that level (29% ). Other common acts among skeptics included exposure to pornography (50% ), gossip (34% ) and drunkenness (33% ).

    People associated with faiths other than Christianity were twice as likely as evangelicals to engage in the behaviors explored. They were most likely to use profanity (33% ), view pornography (32% ) and lie (18% )."


    http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=315
  15. Illinois
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    01 Mar '09 11:06
    Here is another article of findings by the Barna Group which is quite revealing:

    http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=164
    __________

    Jesus taught that Christians would be recognizable by their distinctive behavior, but only a small percentage of those who identified themselves as Christians actually stand out discernibly from the crowd. These are the 'evangelicals' described in my previous post and their superior moral behavior coincides with the following beliefs and conditions set forth by the Barna Group:

    (1) made a personal commitment to Jesus which is still important today
    (2) believe they will go to heaven after death because they have confessed their sins and have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior
    (3) faith is very important in their life today
    (4) believe they have a personal responsibility to share their religious beliefs about Christ with non-Christians
    (5) believe that Satan exists
    (6) believe that eternal salvation is possible only through grace, not works
    (7) believe that Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth
    (8) assert that the Bible is accurate in all that it teaches
    (9) describe God as the all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect deity who created the universe and still rules it today.

    But the majority of "Christians" are non-denominational born-again Christians and Notional Christians. Both non-denominational born-again Christians and Notional Christians are all but indistinguishable from non-Christians in terms of morality (Notional Christians are those who call themselves Christians, but who have never made a profession of faith in Jesus Christ and do not believe that they will have eternal life because of their reliance upon the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the grace extended to people through a relationship with Christ).
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