26 Jan 15
Christian Bale was interviewed about his portrayal of Moses.
His view is that Moses was a terrorist.
-He claims he is doing God's work, that he speaks for God.
-He engaged in 10 plagues. These plagues targeted Egypt's water supply, crops, etc. All of them target civilians and the military indiscriminately.
-The last plague killed children, a child from every family.
-Viewed by his people as a freedom fighter.
-Did not stop until his people was free (until his goals were achieved)
Aside from the supernatural factors, what difference is there between moses and palestinian terrorists?
Originally posted by Zahlanzi- He didn't have much non-supernatural backing that we know of.
Aside from the supernatural factors, what difference is there between moses and palestinian terrorists?
- It wasn't a religious conflict as much as a tribal/racial one.
- He wanted him and his people to leave.
- He didn't exist.
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Originally posted by ZahlanziI don't know anything about Christian Bale. Allow me to converse a bit on just the allegations.
-He claims he is doing God's work, that he speaks for God.
He ALSO claims, that he was disciplined by God on more than one occasion. His heart's desire to enter into the Promised Land was DENIED by God. And God told Moses not even to speak to Him anymore about it because he was being punished.
In considering Moses being a spokesman for God I think you have to be fair to consider the entire scope of things in which he represented God's heart.
His first attempt to do something heroic and violent for the Hebrews backfired and caused him not to attempt anything else (apart from God) for 40 years ! When he was 80 years old and preparing to die, he had no thought of being a deliverer or savior or anything else. It only then God comes to Moses to commission him to be the leader of the Hebrews.
The story, though astounding in its own right, has a ring of authenticity to it IMO.
First God allows Moses to see how unworthy he is to be a leader to liberate slaves. Only after 40 years, when he can no longer do very much, does God come to him to turn him into the deputy authority dependable to make every move according to God's instructions.
And even in that Moses still got disciplined, not being permitted to enter Canaan. Why? Because on one occasion he abused his position and gave the people the wrong impression about God's anger. God cut him no slack because in this infraction. The very leader would not be permitted to enter the Promised Land.
-He engaged in 10 plagues. These plagues targeted Egypt's water supply, crops, etc. All of them target civilians and the military indiscriminately.
Correct. Preceding the 10 plagues God negotiated with Pharoah. Did God NOT? Read your Exodus again from the start, carefully. The ten plagues encreased from being a nuisance to being deadly. In gradiations of severity because Pharoah hardened his heart.
The plagues came, in encreasing levels of severity, after initial negotiations which Pharaoh brushed aside rudely. "Who's Yahweh, that I should LISTEN to Yahweh, Get out of here!"
Don't forget that this is the king who was having the Hebrew male babies murdered for who knows how long. That could have gone on for a long time - the genocide of the Hebrew male children.
-The last plague killed children, a child from every family.
That is correct. But not only the Egyptian families could be hurt. ANY family which did not heed the instructions of the PASSOVER would be hurt. Since they went out of Egypt "a mixed multitude" we know that SOME Egyptians believed God and Moses eventually, as the Hebrews did. Some of them may have placed the blood of the lamb on the doorpost so that God's judging angel would not touch their firstborn.
Exodus is a picture book for certain. And the PASSOVER of God's judgment to those who are in Christ, needed a strong illustration. This was for the whole world in future generations to understand.
So Yes, the 10th plague was harsh on both man and man's beast. But God said to ALL "When I see the blood I will Pass Over ..." This was a picture of redemption in Jesus Christ for His work on the cross for ALL of mankind - past, present, future.
The salvation of God for man is placed upon the dark backround of His righteous judgment which He will not disregard. If you wanted exemption from divine judgement you stayed in the house (Christ) with the blood on the outside on the doorpost and on the lintel. And the judgment of God would PASSOVER you.
I believe that it would have been the escape of both Hebrews (which it obviously was) and believing Egyptians, if there were some. There is nothing saying that God would look into the house to SEE if you were a Hebrew or an Egyptian. He said when He SAW THE BLOOD He would pass over because of the BLOOD of redemption.
It is the same today. When God sees you IN CHRIST, He sees you under the redeeming blood of Christ. You will not perish in eternity.
Your other points I may speak to below.
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26 Jan 15
-Viewed by his people as a freedom fighter.
-Did not stop until his people was free (until his goals were achieved)
Okay. Something similar to that. For sure as God was using Moses and backing up his divine commission with the supernatural, God became terrifying to the stubborn Egyptians. Pharoah's advizers warned him in advance to give it up. But Pharoah's heart was hardened.
We can talk latter about God using and even strengthening Pharaoh in his hardened heart in order to make a historic example out of him.
Aside from the supernatural factors, what difference is there between moses and palestinian terrorists?
The supernatural forces is too important to brush aside.
It is the signs that God did which set immortal seal to the fact that this was NOT Moses. This was God doing the entire matter with Moses and Aaron as deputy authorities acting in complete obedience to God.
The miraculous makes all the difference -
"So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My wonders which I will perform in the midst of it, and after that he will let you go." (Exodus 3:21)
26 Jan 15
1 edit
Originally posted by ZahlanziDomestic?
Christian Bale was interviewed about his portrayal of Moses.
His view is that Moses was a terrorist.
-He claims he is doing God's work, that he speaks for God.
-He engaged in 10 plagues. These plagues targeted Egypt's water supply, crops, etc. All of them target civilians and the military indiscriminately.
-The last plague killed children, a chil ...[text shortened]... rom the supernatural factors, what difference is there between moses and palestinian terrorists?
If he had entered the promised land The Lord might not have let the Isrealites win any battles!?
27 Jan 15
Originally posted by sonship"Preceding the 10 plagues God negotiated with Pharoah. "
I don't know anything about Christian Bale. Allow me to converse a bit on just the allegations.
-He claims he is doing God's work, that he speaks for God.
He ALSO claims, that he was disciplined by God on more than one occasion. His heart's desire to enter into the Promised Land was DENIED by God. And God told Moses not even to speak ...[text shortened]... g blood of Christ. You will not perish in eternity.
Your other points I may speak to below.
he actually presented him with an ultimatum. there was no negotiation, just "let my people go"
palestinian terrorists also "negotiate" with israel.
"Don't forget that this is the king who was having the Hebrew male babies murdered for who knows how long."
that is not disputed. we argue here that moses was a terrorist. sure, both sides are morally wrong. does that lessen the fact that moses targeted civilian infrastructure, attacked civilians with biological and chemical weapons?
" ANY family which did not heed the instructions"
that only reveals that god's angel of death is a moron who can't follow a simple checklist. or in the context of our debate, moses let loose such a weapon of mass destruction that he endangered his own people.
"we know that SOME Egyptians believed God and Moses "
bible verse? disney movies don't count.
"This was a picture of redemption in Jesus Christ"
no, this was an instance of god showing off, of killing people just to show he is awesome.
he is the one who hardened pharaoh's heart, just so he could let loose the whole bag of tricks.
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Originally posted by ZahlanziMy comments will be restricted the Bible and Exodus.
"Preceding the 10 plagues God negotiated with Pharoah. "
he actually presented him with an ultimatum. there was no negotiation, just "let my people go"
The first word from Moses and Aaron to Pharoah is recorded in Exodus 5:1
"And afterwards Moses and Aaron came and said to Pharoah, Thus says Jehovah the God of Israel, Let My people go that they may hold a feast to Me in the wilderness." (Exodus 5:1)
No threat, but request to allow Israel to go have a feast unto Yahweh their God.
And Pharoah's reply:
"But Pharoah said, Who is Jehovah that I should listen to His voice to let Israel go? I do not know Jehovah, and I also will not let Israel go." (v.2)
God was pretty lenient for this first request seeing that Pharoah was practicing infanticide against the Israeli boy children.
"Don't forget that this is the king who was having the Hebrew male babies murdered for who knows how long."
that is not disputed. we argue here that moses was a terrorist.
I think you are exploiting semantics. The executed criminal rapist surely is in "terror" of the judge sentencing him to punishment for his crimes. Yes, by the time of the 10th plague Pharaoh and his court were terrorized.
sure, both sides are morally wrong. does that lessen the fact that moses targeted civilian infrastructure, attacked civilians with biological and chemical weapons?
My comments will be concerning Exodus.
Moses and Aaron even used the word "please" in the first round of negotiations -
"And they said, The God of the Hebrews has met with us. PLEASE let us go a three days' journey into the wilderness that we may sacrifice to Jehovah our God, otherwise He will fall on us with pestilence or sword." (Exo. 5:3)
You can see Moses and Aaron spoke first of the fear they had that pestilence or sword would fall upon THEMSELVES (Israel), the slaves before they mentioned any divine harm directed towards Egypt.
The result of these initial negotiations was extremely disappointing to the Hebrews. Pharaoh assumed the people were superstitious and idle. He commanded that they make just as many bricks and be deprived of the customary supplied straw to make them.
"Then the king of Egypt said to them, Moses and Aaron, why are you trying to release the people from their work. Get back to your burdens." (v.4)
You can read for yourself verses 5 - 23 to see how Pharaoh increased the oppression of tyranny upon the Israelites. This is a picture of Satan's tyranny over man to keep man from being released from the Satanic kingdom by God.
I draw your attention to the fact that you overlooked. In the very first round of negotiations between God and Pharoah, no threat of harm was pronounced by God.
" ANY family which did not heed the instructions"
that only reveals that god's angel of death is a moron
Blasphemies will not encourage discussion. This is poisoning the well of conversation. If you want to talk with me about this, you don't need to go out of your way to poison the well.
You misrepresented the truth of the book of Exodus. God did NOT give an ultimatum for this first encounter of negotiation.
And the angels of God are obedient. The PICTURE which is presented here is that obedience to God to remain in the house with the blood of redemption to be seen by God was salvation. It is important to see that it is being IN CHRIST that is salvation before God.
If this was not the point God is making here, He simply would have told the angel to spare the Hebrews and kill only the Egyptians. He wanted to give us a picture of the Passing over because of divine redemption regardless of who we are or what we have done.
"we know that SOME Egyptians believed God and Moses "
bible verse? disney movies don't count.
Why don't you spend some time to read Exodus. And when you do you can take notice of the "mixed multitude" that participated in leaving Egypt.
For example - Exodus 12:38
King James Bible
And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
An ethnically diverse crowd also went up with them, along with a huge number of livestock, both flocks and herds.
"This was a picture of redemption in Jesus Christ"
no, this was an instance of god showing off, of killing people just to show he is awesome.
The salvation was awesome. The Exodus was awesome. The faithfulness of God was awesome. The faithful sustaining of the huge multitude for 40 years was awesome. And the giving of the law on Mt. Sinai was awesome.
You're just dull and see only what you want to see - sympathy for Pharaoh and the Egyptian slave masters of 400 years.
It is interesting that when Pharoah finally did relent he asked Moses to bless him also. He realized that God was God.
"And he called for Moses and Aaron in the night and said, Rise up, go up out of the midst of my people, both you and the children of Israel; and go, serve Jehovah, as you have said.
Take both your flocks and your herds, as you have said; and go and bless me also." (Exodus 12:31,32)
This is ten plagues latter after Moses said "PLEASE" let Israel go to have a feast to the God of Israel. This shows God's enemies will eventually be conquered in unconditional surrender.
Originally posted by ZahlanziIn my opinion, if you can't see the difference on your own, then you don't deserve an explanation. What you deserve is to be terrorized by being thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone. That includes Christian Bale too, whowever that is. 😏
"Preceding the 10 plagues God negotiated with Pharoah. "
he actually presented him with an ultimatum. there was no negotiation, just "let my people go"
palestinian terrorists also "negotiate" with israel.
"Don't forget that this is the king who was having the Hebrew male babies murdered for who knows how long."
that is not disputed. we argue here t ...[text shortened]...
he is the one who hardened pharaoh's heart, just so he could let loose the whole bag of tricks.
27 Jan 15
Originally posted by RJHindsYou're quite limited, aren't you.
In my opinion, if you can't see the difference on your own, then you don't deserve an explanation. What you deserve is to be terrorized by being thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone. That includes Christian Bale too, whowever that is. 😏
27 Jan 15
Originally posted by sonship"Let My people go that they may hold a feast to Me in the wilderness."
My comments will be restricted the Bible and [b]Exodus.
"Preceding the 10 plagues God negotiated with Pharoah. "
he actually presented him with an ultimatum. there was no negotiation, just "let my people go"
The first word from Moses and Aaron to Pharoah is recorded in Exodus 5:1
"And afterwards Moses and Aar ...[text shortened]... God of Israel. This shows God's enemies will eventually be conquered in unconditional surrender.
yes, i was looking for that verse, because i knew you would hit me with it. thanks for finding it.
what is left out is moses and aaron winking and high fiving each other. "yes, pharaoh, we will TOOOOOOTALLY come back to slavery"
"God was pretty lenient for this first request seeing that Pharoah was practicing infanticide against the Israeli boy children"
and then god hardened his heart so that the entire egyptian people may suffer even though pharaoh might have already crapped his thong at the blood in the nile.
" Yes, by the time of the 10th plague Pharaoh and his court were terrorized."
in doesn't take 10 suicide bombings to label a terrorist organization. moses was a terrorist from the moment he attacked civilians and civilian infrastructure.
" You can see Moses and Aaron spoke first of the fear they had that pestilence or sword would fall upon THEMSELVES (Israel), the slaves before they mentioned any divine harm directed towards Egypt. "
which was a lie. god wanted the hebrews to go free, not to sacrifice a little in some remote place and then come back into slavery. moses and aaron told this lie just as an idiotic and childish attempt to trick pharaoh. of course they wouldn't have come back, duh.
"The result of these initial negotiations"
there were no negotiations. a negotiation would have been "let me go in place X to give thanks to my god" "how about i allow you give thanks to your god right here?". the hebrews demanded to leave. period. pharaoh said no, because wooohoo, slaves are cheap awesome labor.
after the first plague the pharaoh's free will was taken from him so there REALLY couldn't have been any negotiations.
"Blasphemies will not encourage discussion. This is poisoning the well of conversation. If you want to talk with me about this, you don't need to go out of your way to poison the well."
oh i am sorry, i am curious to hear how you would label a supernatural agent of an omnipotent and omniscient deity who cannot find his way around an ancient city (most likely the hebrews were living in slums anyway). how would you label a postman who doesn't know who lives where? why does the angel of death get special treatment?
"God did NOT give an ultimatum for this first encounter of negotiation. "
when one makes a demand and is unwilling to budge from it, that is consistent with the first half of an ultimatum's definition. you are right though, at first there was no "threat of retaliation" if the demand wasn't met. at no point however was there a negotiation.
"Why don't you spend some time to read Exodus"
why don't you substantiate your claims with proof and not demand i read the entire exodus to find a non existent proof for your unfounded claim? supply the verse and i will retract this.
what you quoted has no verse, from the bible I read there is no mention of other nations.
"The salvation was awesome. The Exodus was awesome. The faithfulness of God was awesome."
everything was awesome except for the egyptians who had to bury their children and suffer hunger from the ecological damage left, just so that God could brag about all the awesome magic he inflicted on them.
"You're just dull and see only what you want to see - sympathy for Pharaoh and the Egyptian slave masters of 400 years. "
everyone owned slaves then. so will the hebrews in the future. escaped from slavery, they immediately began owning slaves. also, my sympathy goes to the egyptian people who suffered because god hardened the heart of pharaoh.
"This is ten plagues latter after Moses said "PLEASE" let Israel go to have a feast to the God of Israel."
"And we will toooootally come back into slavery and have our male babies killed"
"
Originally posted by RJHinds"only by fully believing what is in the bible can you comprehend what is in the bible".
In my opinion, if you can't see the difference on your own, then you don't deserve an explanation. What you deserve is to be terrorized by being thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone. That includes Christian Bale too, whowever that is. 😏
yeh, gotcha.
27 Jan 15
Originally posted by Zahlanzi"Terrorist" is a label you slap on people that allows you to bomb them indiscriminately and treat them as mentally insane.
Christian Bale was interviewed about his portrayal of Moses.
His view is that Moses was a terrorist.
-He claims he is doing God's work, that he speaks for God.
-He engaged in 10 plagues. These plagues targeted Egypt's water supply, crops, etc. All of them target civilians and the military indiscriminately.
-The last plague killed children, a chil ...[text shortened]... rom the supernatural factors, what difference is there between moses and palestinian terrorists?
"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." [Don't know who first said that, but it's so true.]
27 Jan 15
Originally posted by ZahlanziEither you have no grip on history, reality or (most likely) neither.
Christian Bale was interviewed about his portrayal of Moses.
His view is that Moses was a terrorist.
-He claims he is doing God's work, that he speaks for God.
-He engaged in 10 plagues. These plagues targeted Egypt's water supply, crops, etc. All of them target civilians and the military indiscriminately.
-The last plague killed children, a chil ...[text shortened]... rom the supernatural factors, what difference is there between moses and palestinian terrorists?
Terrorism is a violent means to a political end.
The direction from Moses to the pharoah was to let the children of Israel go, not to abdicate rule of Egypt to him or them.
27 Jan 15
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemCorrectly used, a "Terrorist" is anyone whose actions are intended primarily to cause terror (fear). Many Muslim suicide bombers do fit this description because their aim is not primarily to kill 'the enemy' but rather to strike fear into those who hear about the event.
"Terrorist" is a label you slap on people that allows you to bomb them indiscriminately and treat them as mentally insane.
"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." [Don't know who first said that, but it's so true.]
Some freedom fighters may also fit this description.
I think the real question is not 'who is a terrorist' but 'is terrorism always wrong' and if it is, how does it compare to other acts of violence or acts of war? Should we judge deaths by intent, by quantity or by some other measure? Is a soldiers life is worth less than a civilians life? Is a member of your own nationality/religion/race/culture worth more than a member of some other nationality?
27 Jan 15
Originally posted by FreakyKBHAt least he makes sense.
Either you have no grip on history, reality or (most likely) neither.
Terrorism is a violent means to a political end.
The direction from Moses to the pharoah was to let the children of Israel go, not to abdicate rule of Egypt to him or them.
So, essentially a violent means to a political end. (although that is not a particularly good definition for 'terrorism'.)