07 Mar '07 01:31>
Ok so here's another way of looking at the issue of nothing zzzzzzz.....
Whether you are a Something from Nothinger or into eternity one thing is common to both.
1) There must be at least one "thing" in existence that is uncaused and totally non-reliant on anything else. (either the universe , God whatever)
Now if, you don't agree with 1) go and find another thread.
still here...?
Ok , here's my problem. Let's say that the universe (via a singularity or something) "emerged" from nothing. This is to say that to say what came before it or what caused it is a meaningless question because nothing caused it.
Now , have a think about what this implies. An entity has the ability to exist all by itself in a totally non-reliant way. It can "bring itself" into existence not because it is forced to by another cause or another reason , but simply because it does , with no explanation or causal relationship with anything preceeding it. This entity must be free of determinism because it is not determined by anything else. It can exist of it's own power , it needs no why or any other thing to help it. It just does it. There is no why to it's beginning because to ask why would imply a cause. One cannot ask how? Because to ask "how?" would be to refer to some mechanism or cause that makes this thing do what it does (namely exist as opposed to not exist). This entity has the ability to "create itself" if you like from zilch.
Take a few moments just to contemplate what an incredible thing this is.
So back to my problem. My feeling is that somehow to have a "beginning" seems a bit at odds with such an entity. I mean if this is what is a the heart of the universe I would be fully expecting the universe to go on and on forever. There is no reason why it shouldn't. Why would something that can exist in it's own right in such a completely non-dependent way ever go away? Surely , even if it were annihilated it could just "will" itself into existence again. So if it will exist forever , why can't it also HAVE existed forever? It shouldn't be a problem.
After a while I start to think that if there is no reason for this thing to "go away" (because it relies not on something else to give it power or energy) then I wonder why did it "bother" having a beginning in the first place? A beginning seems so suggestive of something that has a cause of some sort!! This entity has no cause. Why would it not just have no beginning at all and no end and just always exist , eternally.
If you really think about it , it's a bit like imagining Bill Gates having to borrow someone's laptop. Why would he need to?
Are really saying that something uncaused has to hang around for eons of nothingness , waiting in the wings for the right "moment" (beginning) or conditions? What's it playing at? It's uncaused and non -self reliant but seems to behave very much like an "event" of some sort. It's like superman having a dodgy hip , it makes you wonder what's going on.
Whether you are a Something from Nothinger or into eternity one thing is common to both.
1) There must be at least one "thing" in existence that is uncaused and totally non-reliant on anything else. (either the universe , God whatever)
Now if, you don't agree with 1) go and find another thread.
still here...?
Ok , here's my problem. Let's say that the universe (via a singularity or something) "emerged" from nothing. This is to say that to say what came before it or what caused it is a meaningless question because nothing caused it.
Now , have a think about what this implies. An entity has the ability to exist all by itself in a totally non-reliant way. It can "bring itself" into existence not because it is forced to by another cause or another reason , but simply because it does , with no explanation or causal relationship with anything preceeding it. This entity must be free of determinism because it is not determined by anything else. It can exist of it's own power , it needs no why or any other thing to help it. It just does it. There is no why to it's beginning because to ask why would imply a cause. One cannot ask how? Because to ask "how?" would be to refer to some mechanism or cause that makes this thing do what it does (namely exist as opposed to not exist). This entity has the ability to "create itself" if you like from zilch.
Take a few moments just to contemplate what an incredible thing this is.
So back to my problem. My feeling is that somehow to have a "beginning" seems a bit at odds with such an entity. I mean if this is what is a the heart of the universe I would be fully expecting the universe to go on and on forever. There is no reason why it shouldn't. Why would something that can exist in it's own right in such a completely non-dependent way ever go away? Surely , even if it were annihilated it could just "will" itself into existence again. So if it will exist forever , why can't it also HAVE existed forever? It shouldn't be a problem.
After a while I start to think that if there is no reason for this thing to "go away" (because it relies not on something else to give it power or energy) then I wonder why did it "bother" having a beginning in the first place? A beginning seems so suggestive of something that has a cause of some sort!! This entity has no cause. Why would it not just have no beginning at all and no end and just always exist , eternally.
If you really think about it , it's a bit like imagining Bill Gates having to borrow someone's laptop. Why would he need to?
Are really saying that something uncaused has to hang around for eons of nothingness , waiting in the wings for the right "moment" (beginning) or conditions? What's it playing at? It's uncaused and non -self reliant but seems to behave very much like an "event" of some sort. It's like superman having a dodgy hip , it makes you wonder what's going on.