Muslim is not a terrible religion.

I think the problem with Islam is that noone in any leadership position condemns the acts of terrorism. If, for example a Catholic person was killing, or training killers or encouraging killing in any way in the name of religion, the Pope or other leaders would immediately release statements condemning the acts. They may order their church members to stop the acts, or even tell them to turn themselves in. They might excommunicate them or otherwise "call them to repentance."
In Islam, no one of any authority speaks out or tells them to stop. In many cases you will hear leaders rationalizing these acts and even encouraging it.
Though their scripture and teachings may condemn it, if an organization or religion can not maintain or keep its members from such things, then it is by definition a failure.
What is the purpose of a religion if not to make a person better, and bring them closer to deity? And if a religion fails to do so and is in fact responsible for the opposite, then that religion has a serious problem. I know it may not be politically correct to say so, but that's how i feel.

Originally posted by icculus79
Though their scripture and teachings may condemn it

This is not so. The islam/muslim scriptures aka quran encourage murder. I know this because I have heard qutoes from that book, but I don't know any exact ones off hand. I regaurd the "holy" quran as satan's inspired words written through man. It is just a big book of deceit. This doesn't mean I don't like Muslims. They just need to hear the truth, ie God Inspired Word which is way too scientifically accurate to be false. If you look around you will find all sorts of proofs of the claims in the Bible. Some pepole on this site claim to be looking for truth but they haven't been interested enough to see why the Bible is true. Either change your standpoint ie admit you're not looking for the truth or look for it (see reasons why the Bible is true). I hope I haven't offended anybody, as all I'm doing is stating my beliefs.

Originally posted by icculus79
I think the problem with Islam is that noone in any leadership position condemns the acts of terrorism. If, for example a Catholic person was killing, or training killers or encouraging killing in any way in the name of religion, the Pope or other leaders would immediately release statements condemning the acts. They may order their church members to stop ...[text shortened]... s a serious problem. I know it may not be politically correct to say so, but that's how i feel.

Which tells you they believe in all that the Koran says. As has been said there are many Muslims that are peaceful, the religion they follow is not.

Originally posted by bobbob1056th
This is not so. The islam/muslim scriptures aka quran encourage murder. I know this because I have heard qutoes from that book, but I don't know any exact ones off hand. I regaurd the "holy" quran as satan's inspired words written through man. It is just a big book of deceit. This doesn't mean I don't like Muslims. They just need to hear the ...[text shortened]... he Bible is true). I hope I haven't offended anybody, as all I'm doing is stating my beliefs.

Then kindly explain the following --

In Luke 19:27, Jesus is reported to say:

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them - bring them here and kill them in front of me."

And this from the Koran 2:190 --

"The believer is called upon to fight in the way of God with those that fight with you...but aggress not. God loves not the aggressors."

And so on. As I was saying, both Bible and Koran contain multiple viewpoints, including statements both of aggression and statements of peace. You can't argue that one approach is gentler or more civilized then the other, as your own scriptures don't support you. You will be left with just "I believe". Which is fine, but don't try to argue this rationally via contrasting scriptures. That will be an exercise in selective interpretation only.

Originally posted by Metamorphosis
Then kindly explain the following --

In Luke 19:27, Jesus is reported to say:

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them - bring them here and kill them in front of me."

And this from the Koran 2:190 --

"The believer is called upon to fight in the way of God with those that fight with you...but aggress not. God l ...[text shortened]... ationally via contrasting scriptures. That will be an exercise in selective interpretation only.

In LUKE 19 very good Scripture. But you might have missed something.
And because Jesus was nearing Jerusalem, he told a story to correct the impression that the Kingdom of God would begin right away.
LUKE 19:11
There was a clear understanding before CHRIST gave this story.Yes at the end of the story, the king says to bring those that rebelled against him to be killed. Again HE says those that rebelled against him. Which is the right of any king.
Nowhere in the Words of CHRIST, or the New Testament, are there words such as:
Seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks, (surah 4:89)
For the Unbelievers are open enemies to you. (surah 4:101)
And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out, for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. (surah 2:191)
These are just a few instances of the hatreds of the koran for those that donot accept Islam. As well as the permission to murder Jews and Christians. In your study did you find words of forgiveness for your enemies? How about salvation? How about going to heaven by rape and murder? There is no comparision at all for THE WORD OF GOD and the koran. THE WORD OF GOD clearly say that forgiveness for sins is freely given through JESUS CHRIST. There are no words of Salvation in the koran.

Yes, my friends, you are quite right. But I didn't claim they had achieved nothing. On the contrary, it is quite a sad tale of lost potential.

Many Greek texts might well have been lost, had it not been for the Moslem world. And great advances were indeed made in medicine, and science, in astronomy, and they invented our numerical system, and gave us algebra and the origins of trigonometry (thanks for that one, by the way, from back when I was 17 in Leaving Cert. Maths Class!)...

But what you seem to be missing is the fact that these advances were made pre 1200.

Indeed, at the start of the first Crusade, their society was very much more advanced in the pursuit of (at least scientific) knowledge. They even had tempered steel swords, when the Christians were lugging iron ones.

But I think it is indisputable that the high point of that civilisation was reached on this continent, in Iberia. There the Mohammedans could relax and have a good time, drink some wine, write some poetry, and chat up some babes without anyone chopping their limbs off. However, every now and again, a chap form Saudi would arrive to bash them on the head, and keep them in check.

Fundamentalism killed all that. A shame, really.

Then the Europeans had their pre-Renaissance, then the Renaissance, Enlightenment, and all that.

The ban on reading was indeed in place right up to the second half of the 19th century, despite what you might think. But leaving literature, let's look at fine art, painting and sculpture.

Good point about idolatry. Any depiction of human or animal form to them was, and still IS for a large part of that world, pornography. So... a gifted Mohammedan artist was restricted to painting verses of the Koran on things, or geometric design. Whilst that can be quite beautiful in itself, it cannot be seriously compared with European art. Again, the fault of fundamentalism.

[b]So, since the 13th century, say, what have the Romans....

no, wait...

...Moslems actually done for us (which can be noted as a contribution to the culture of mankind)???

Blindfaith101: “These are just a few instances of the hatreds of the koran for those that do not accept Islam. As well as the permission to murder Jews and Christians.”

Your quotes from the Qur’an have been taken dreadfully out of context.

Surah 4:101 “And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you trouble. Surely the disbelievers are an open enemy to you.”

In this case, it is non-Muslims who have declared themselves to be open enemies to the Muslims. Muslims are here permitted to shorten their prayer-time (Muslims pray five times a day) if they fear that their enemies will harass or attack them.

Surah 2:190-195

“And fight in God’s cause against those who wage war against you but do not commit aggression, for surely God does not love aggressors.

“And slay them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out, for oppression is even worse than killing. And fight not against them near the Inviolable House of Worship unless they fight against you there first; but if they fight against you, slay them: such is the recompense of those who deny the truth.

“But if they desist—behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.

“Hence, fight against them until there is no more oppression and all worship is devoted to God alone; but if they desist, all hostility shall cease, except against oppressors.

“Fight during the sacred months if you are attacked: for a violation of sanctity is just retribution. Thus, if anyone commits aggression against you, attack him just as he has attacked you—but remain conscious of God, and know that God is with those who are conscious of him.

“And spend in God’s cause, and let not your own hands throw you into destruction; and persevere in doing good: behold, God loves the doers of good.”

This is clearly about fighting against aggression, persecution, oppression, to defend your religion, your property, your life. It is not a “hunting license” against unbelievers. If the aggressors cease hostility, so must the Muslims. (The same general thing applies to Surah 4:89-91, except that these verses deal with those who pretended to ally themselves with the Muslims, while plotting against them.)

I do not read Arabic, but I have read the Qur’an and have several translations with commentaries. Nowhere in it can I find any license for a Muslim to commit murder of any kind. I think perhaps it is your “peaceful Muslims” who are reading the Qur’an correctly, and not any of the terrorists—nor you.

It should also be noted that the Qur’an is not written as a straightforward narrative text. It often seems to have a kind of dialectical pattern to it, which undoubtedly complicates the nature of “contextuality,” and which I think Islamic exegesis takes into account. Perhaps there is some kind Muslim on here who can better explain it to you than I can.

[b]So, nobody's going to answer my question, then???

vistesd; Indeed you have answered these threads with great accuracy. Your comments clearly prove that you have read the Quran; a claim not many from the Western World, or to narrow it down, from the RHP World is able to demonstrate. It comforting to see such understanding from a non-muslim individual such as your good self.

Anyone here can look up a search in googles, yahoo or whatever search engine for the word quran and will get thousands of references.. in these you can find indexes of topics referred to in the scriptures, look for the words “Revenge” “Kill” etc etc, and you will find what you sought.. but as was posted above, it will be hideously out of context.

It was talked about Generalisation on the very first post on this thread, and reading through my hopes and spirits were raised as the posts started to talk against generalisation. Sadly my happiness faded just as quickly as it came, as I kept seeing posts that generalised again and again, contradicting what the thread was posted for in the first place.

I was asked to contribute to this debate and really not sure what to answer, as for the very first comments, Sratpam; thank you for that. Media is the number one factor in spreading such ignorant generalisations. vistesd keep up the good work, and for the pair of you, here are two “rec’s” from me.

Salam.

Originally posted by vistesd
Blindfaith101: “These are just a few instances of the hatreds of the koran for those that do not accept Islam. As well as the permission to murder Jews and Christians.”

Your quotes from the Qur’an have been taken dreadfully out of context.

Surah 4:101 “And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if ...[text shortened]... unt. Perhaps there is some kind Muslim on here who can better explain it to you than I can.

Is it not true one instance of doing harm to any Christian or Jew is one too many?
Are you saying that those millions of Christians that have been killed in North Africa and South East Asia, for not acceptting Islam, were not killed by those that were not following, the teachings of the Koran?

Originally posted by blindfaith101
Is it not true one instance of doing harm to any Christian or Jew is one too many?
Are you saying that those millions of Christians that have been killed in North Africa and South East Asia, for not acceptting Islam, were not killed by those that were not following, the teachings of the Koran?

blindfaith101 why do you pick and choose what you want from the Quran and other reliable references???? Why not look up;

"There is no force in religion." Al-Quran; 2:256

"History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fanatically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated." De Lacy O'Leary, 1923, Historian.

"The picture of the Muslim soldier advancing with a sword in one hand and the Quran in the other is quite false." A. S. Tritton, 1951, Historian.

"No other religion in history spread so rapidly as Islam... The West has widely believed that this surge of religion was made possible by the sword. But no modern scholar accepts that idea and the Quran is explicit in support of the freedom of conscience." James A. Michener, Reader's Digest, May 1955.

"Muhammad adhered meticulously to the charter he forged for Medina, which - grounded as it was in the Koranic injunction, "Let there be no compulsion in religion" (2:256) - is arguably the first mandate for religious tolerance in human history." Huston Smith, The Illustrated World's Religions.

"The greatest success of Muhammed's life was effected by sheer moral force without the stroke of a sword." Edward Gibbon, History of the Saracen Empire, London, 1870.

"Islam was never imposed by sword or by force, but it got into the hearts of people out of longing and free will, due to the talents of stimulation and captivation of people's hearts, lodged in the Koran." Count de Castri, Islam: Impressions and Studies.

Convinced yet? Want more?? Do your research before even attempting to pollute other’s religions..

Originally posted by blindfaith101
Is it not true one instance of doing harm to any Christian or Jew is one too many?
Are you saying that those millions of Christians that have been killed in North Africa and South East Asia, for not acceptting Islam, were not killed by those that were not following, the teachings of the Koran?

Is it not true one instance of doing harm to any Christian or Jew is one too many?

Any instance of anyone being harmed because of their religion—no matter which religion they ascribe to, or the religion of the perpetrator—is one too many.

Are you saying that those millions of Christians that have been killed in North Africa and South East Asia, for not accepting Islam, were not killed by those that were not following, the teachings of the Koran?

I would say that killing anyone for not accepting Islam is definitely not Quranic—just as killing someone for not accepting Christianity is not Biblical, even though self-claimed Christians in the church have at times done just that.

No, I didn't think anyone would. Well, draw your own conclusions about fundamentalism, and what it does for mankind.