1. Donationbuckky
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    17 Jul '09 16:31
    It seems to me that all religious, and spiritual seeking is just the human need for bliss of some kind. Eating, having sex, drinking booze or doing dope, or wanting to go the Heaven seems to be the same craving for more pleasure. Heaven would be just that, pure Heaven. Pure Bliss forever is the ultimate goal of everything we do at it's core. The carrot before the horse is what Heaven is. I pray there is a Heaven, and that I'm allowed in, because I want Bliss all the time myself. Who doesn't ?
  2. Pepperland
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    17 Jul '09 16:43
    Originally posted by buckky
    It seems to me that all religious, and spiritual seeking is just the human need for bliss of some kind. Eating, having sex, drinking booze or doing dope, or wanting to go the Heaven seems to be the same craving for more pleasure. Heaven would be just that, pure Heaven. Pure Bliss forever is the ultimate goal of everything we do at it's core. The carrot befor ...[text shortened]... is a Heaven, and that I'm allowed in, because I want Bliss all the time myself. Who doesn't ?
    I think there's more to it than just a need for bliss.

    I think most people become religious because they want answers to questions like "why are we here?", "what is the meaning of it all", etc.
  3. Pepperland
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    17 Jul '09 16:53
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    didn't stop me.
  4. Hmmm . . .
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    17 Jul '09 17:06
    Originally posted by generalissimo
    I think there's more to it than just a need for bliss.

    I think most people become religious because they want answers to questions like "why are we here?", "what is the meaning of it all", etc.
    I think you’re right. The aesthetic aspects of religion (and how we live our lives generally) likely need to be evaluated in different terms from the philosophical aspects (e.g., theological doctrine, truth-seeking).

    Nevertheless, there is some philosophical underpinning for Buckky’s view here. Aristotle, asking what is the highest good—that which is valued solely in itself, rather than as a means to any other good—said it was eudaimonia. That is sometimes translated as “happiness”, sometimes as “flourishing” (bbarr’s view), sometimes as “well-being”. I conflate (redundantly perhaps) the latter two: “flourishing well-being”. It is hard to imagine someone living a life of flourishing well-being also being chronically unhappy; unhappiness results from some ill-being (physical or mental).

    Since Aristotle thought that philosophy was part of a life of eudaimonia, your emendation to Buckky’s post would be included, I think. (The pursuit of truth, wondering and speculating about meaning—such things can have an aesthetic component as well.)
  5. Hmmm . . .
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    17 Jul '09 17:091 edit
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    Some religious views do; some don't. But even dogmatic religious assertions likely began with such questions. The error is when the "answers" are dogmatically treated as beyond any defeasibility (even in principle), and hence further questioning.

    EDIT: Just saw your second post. Religion often is used that way (maybe even more often than not); not always, though.
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    17 Jul '09 17:13
    Originally posted by buckky
    It seems to me that all religious, and spiritual seeking is just the human need for bliss of some kind. Eating, having sex, drinking booze or doing dope, or wanting to go the Heaven seems to be the same craving for more pleasure. Heaven would be just that, pure Heaven. Pure Bliss forever is the ultimate goal of everything we do at it's core. The carrot befor ...[text shortened]... is a Heaven, and that I'm allowed in, because I want Bliss all the time myself. Who doesn't ?
    Do you truly think it a need or merely a desire? What role does this craving play in keeping people from rational thought?
  7. Pepperland
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    17 Jul '09 17:19
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    OK, Would you say that Religion can provide a crutch so people don't have to ask questions like "why are we here?", "what is the meaning of it all?"

    no, but it gives them a starting point, or some form of explanation to certain things.

    Life is a mystery, and there is no simple answer to it.
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    17 Jul '09 17:37
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Do you truly think it a need or merely a desire? What role does this craving play in keeping people from rational thought?
    Earthly desires are enlightenment.
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    17 Jul '09 18:29
    Originally posted by TerrierJack
    Earthly desires are enlightenment.
    Not good enlightenment if any at all
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    17 Jul '09 18:35
    Originally posted by TerrierJack
    Earthly desires are enlightenment.
    Good one. Unfortunately there does seem to be a great number of people who believe this.
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    17 Jul '09 20:18
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Good one. Unfortunately there does seem to be a great number of people who believe this.
    Why should they not believe it? Try to be a happier person without wanting to be - get back to me on that. You can't get out of the box. You can walk around telling people that you're out of the box but you run the risk of being put in a real box (I won't name names.) Heaven (bliss) is a poor target (but the best a dumb animal can attain.) You have to accept some personal responsibility to get beyond that (why most don't try) but even the dumbest human can do that. Even pleasure is not wrong - try living without it and you become egocentric, paranoid, and dangerous to others (again I won't name names.)
  12. Donationbuckky
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    17 Jul '09 22:07
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Do you truly think it a need or merely a desire? What role does this craving play in keeping people from rational thought?
    Humans don't live by bread alone. Need or desire seems like splitting hairs. Whats irrational about wanting to be happy all the time ? Sometimes it seems like a dog chasing it's tail in the fact that constant happiness never appears to take place. Small moments of release from the contracted state we all inhabit is all we can hope for, but that still does not take away from the need or desire for more release into Bliss.
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    17 Jul '09 22:38
    Originally posted by buckky
    Humans don't live by bread alone. Need or desire seems like splitting hairs. Whats irrational about wanting to be happy all the time ? Sometimes it seems like a dog chasing it's tail in the fact that constant happiness never appears to take place. Small moments of release from the contracted state we all inhabit is all we can hope for, but that still does not take away from the need or desire for more release into Bliss.
    I came up with a personal motto a while ago: eternal bliss now.

    It was in response to the pass time people, including me, have of daydreaming sometimes in a wishful way. I just thought I'd take it to its logical conclusion.

    So I'm totally in agreement with you when you hope there is a heaven and that you will be let in. Me too.

    I disagree with generalissimo's assessment of the role of religion in human society though. I think things are a bit more complicated still. Certainly, those who look to religion for an explanation of questions like 'why are we here' will either be disappointed, or they have redefined the term 'explanation' without even themselves noticing. Which is a neat trick actually.
  14. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    18 Jul '09 00:08
    Originally posted by buckky
    Humans don't live by bread alone. Need or desire seems like splitting hairs. Whats irrational about wanting to be happy all the time ? Sometimes it seems like a dog chasing it's tail in the fact that constant happiness never appears to take place. Small moments of release from the contracted state we all inhabit is all we can hope for, but that still does not take away from the need or desire for more release into Bliss.
    The verbs 'need' and 'want' have to be transmuted to one word:'need-want'. Only in this way can we approach God.
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    18 Jul '09 00:183 edits
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    You could argue that some use science as a similar crutch. After all, just studying the truth behind our origins will NEVER answer what the meaning of it all is, however, for some it is enough just to know bits and peices of the puzzle instead of trying to get the big picture of what the puzzle actually is all about. They then often turn and deride those who try to peice together the missing peices of the puzzle.
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