New Testament on homosexuality

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
I think you seem to know yourself pretty well and I wouldn't presume to tell you that you are or are not free to believe whatever you choose.

I tend to see things in a much more black&white way. If one asks me "Do you believe in God?", asking for a definition of God wouldn't enter my mind. I'd say "yes", using my own definitions of God (and every other word in the question I suppose) and I would consider that to be a free choice.

That makes sense, after all you have your own conception of god, that is to say, there is a notion of god to which you subscribe. I, on the other hand, have encountered many ideas about god and have tried to work out my own. None of them have seemed plausible to me, but there you are.

I wonder whether your conviction that yours is a free choice is actually an articulation of your fidelity. That is, you have stuck to what you believe in and that has required a certain degree of loyalty if times were difficult? That would describe something that is like a series of choices.

Originally posted by Lord Shark
That makes sense, after all you have your own conception of god, that is to say, there is a notion of god to which you subscribe. I, on the other hand, have encountered many ideas about god and have tried to work out my own. None of them have seemed plausible to me, but there you are.

I wonder whether your conviction that yours is a free choice is actu ...[text shortened]... if times were difficult? That would describe something that is like a series of choices.

I'm certain that has a lot to do with my beliefs, and probably a lot of other peoples' as well. My parents took me to church, never lied to me, etc., hence there's no way I could begin a discourse on God and beliefs without the prolegomena that goes with it. And though I'm now a Lutheran, and have always been a protestant of some strripe, there are some tenets even in Lutheranism that don't jive with the Methodism I grew up with, and I'm loyal to those Methodist doctrines to the point that I am unwilling to give them up.

Ah...nurture / nature rears its head again 🙂

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
I'm certain that has a lot to do with my beliefs, and probably a lot of other peoples' as well. My parents took me to church, never lied to me, etc., hence there's no way I could begin a discourse on God and beliefs without the prolegomena that goes with it. And though I'm now a Lutheran, and have always been a protestant of some strripe, there are some ...[text shortened]... oint that I am unwilling to give them up.

Ah...nurture / nature rears its head again 🙂

Well thank you for an interesting and civilised discussion, even if we didn't resolve our differences on the nature of free choice as it relates to belief 🙂

As for nature/nurture, it is usually both isn't it?

Originally posted by Lord Shark
Well thank you for an interesting and civilised discussion, even if we didn't resolve our differences on the nature of free choice as it relates to belief 🙂

As for nature/nurture, it is usually both isn't it?

alsways. though I tend to give nature far more points than nurture in the ultimate outcome.

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
alsways. though I tend to give nature far more points than nurture in the ultimate outcome.

For some things that will be true no doubt, but these things are so hard to disentangle in a rigorous way. In terms of religion there is evidence that humans are predisposed to form concepts of supernatural agents (nature) but that the precise notions are highly dependent on upbringing (culture).

Before you award quite so many points to nature, reflect on your reluctance to relinquish the methodist tenets of your upbringing and look me in the eye and tell me with a straight face that if you'd been born in Pakistan you would not likely be muslim 🙂

my wife was born in Pakistan and she is a Christian, from birth.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
my wife was born in Pakistan and she is a Christian, from birth.

Yes, but what's your point? That she was brought up a Christian and ended up Christian? Or that even in Pakistan there is a small but finite probability that you will be brought up Christian rather than Muslim?

Originally posted by Lord Shark
For some things that will be true no doubt, but these things are so hard to disentangle in a rigorous way. In terms of religion there is evidence that humans are predisposed to form concepts of supernatural agents (nature) but that the precise notions are highly dependent on upbringing (culture).

Before you award quite so many points to nature, reflect ...[text shortened]... l me with a straight face that if you'd been born in Pakistan you would not likely be muslim 🙂

A very devout, non-militant muslim, but a muslim no doubt. And if I'd been born in Minsk circa 1945, I believe I'd have been a hard-working, unassuming Communist. 😉