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Originally posted by Nordlys
He could allow us to choose between non-evil things. I don't understand why free will should just be about choosing between good and evil. And I believe that most people who do something evil don't really choose between good and evil, but act out of desparation, not seeing any other choices, or because they lose control over their emotions, or because they bl ...[text shortened]... ing evil things either. So if this is all "free will" is about, I don't see much value in it.[/b]

He could allow us to choose between non-evil things.

Then there would be no evil, nothing to contrast good.

I don't understand why free will should just be about choosing between good and evil.

It’s not always.

And I believe that most people who do something evil don't really choose between good and evil, but act out of desparation, not seeing any other choices, or because they lose control over their emotions, or because they blindly follow someone else. And most people don't enjoy doing evil things either. So if this is all "free will" is about, I don't see much value in it.

99% of the time we know what the right and wrong things to do are. I see your point though. Sometimes things get pretty obscure.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]He could allow us to choose between non-evil things.

Then there would be no evil, nothing to contrast good.

I don't understand why free will should just be about choosing between good and evil.

It’s not always.

And I believe that most people who do something evil don't really choose between good and evil, but ac ...[text shortened]... ht and wrong things to do are. I see your point though. Sometimes things get pretty obscure.[/b]

Then there would be no evil, nothing to contrast good.

Yes. What's the problem with that?

99% of the time we know what the right and wrong things to do are.

Knowing and being able to choose are two different things. If I know I should do something, but am too weak to do it - physically or mentally - do I have a choice? If I know what I should do, but don't know how, do I have a choice?

Originally posted by Nordlys
[b]Then there would be no evil, nothing to contrast good.

Yes. What's the problem with that?

99% of the time we know what the right and wrong things to do are.

Knowing and being able to choose are two different things. If I know I should do something, but am too weak to do it - physically or mentally - do I have a choice? If I know what I should do, but don't know how, do I have a choice?[/b]

Very wise!

Originally posted by rwingett
How can you possibly deduce that there is a purpose to everything based on one unextraordinary coincidence? Or are you claiming that every fortunate turn of events, no matter how minor, is the hand of god at work? If so then you must also give him the blame for every tragedy that occurs that has no silver lining. Many people have their houses burn down wher ...[text shortened]... ument becomes why did god cause Satan, and why does he continue to tolerate his presence?

God either sank the ship with his own hand, or he gave his tacit approval by not intervening to keep it afloat. What purpose was served by this action? Could that same purpose have been accomplished with a lesser cost in life?

Are these the only possibilities you can conjure up? How about Satan sank the ship?
But let's not even go there....you value the cost of any life. This is noble. But what you imply is that you are noble and God is not. What you have not understood is that in the world there is God and god. The latter being Satan also called the god of this world. That means that the whole world belongs to him. Including the people in it. So if you want to go around and accuse God of disasters, suit yourself but you are in error.

It has been said..."Why do bad things happen to good people?"
But I think it would be more appropriate to ask..Why do good things happen to bad people? Consider...

Rom 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
(NKJ)

That is, all are born in sin. Man cannot help himself. That is his nature.


Jer 13:23
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.
(NKJ)

No, he cannot change his ways until he comes to Jesus Christ and receive a new nature.

Eph 2:3
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
(NKJ)

2 Pet 1:4
4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
(NKJ)



Now, back to Satan. The authority over the world was delivered to him.

Luke 4:6
6 And the devil said to Him, "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.
(NKJ)

Now, at times God can intervene. Perhaps this is what prayer is all about. But unbelievers and believers are killed daily. There is a spiritual battle going on which we cannot see. But we see the consequences.
There are times when God cannot intervene. Maybe because He has to honor His own rules. What belongs to Satan belongs to Satan. If a person chooses to believe and accept Christ, then his god becomes the true God. Then he is under different authority. Then Satan can only do to this person as the person allows. A Christian must know his Sonship rights.
Col 1:13-14
13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
(NKJ)

Not knowing what is going on in the spiritual war, we don't always know why some are saved and some are not. We only know in part. In war there are casualties. Every thing happening in the spiritual realm has ramifications in the physical realm.
You can take this for what it's worth, but there has been much study on this topic.

Originally posted by Nordlys
[b]Then there would be no evil, nothing to contrast good.

Yes. What's the problem with that?

99% of the time we know what the right and wrong things to do are.

Knowing and being able to choose are two different things. If I know I should do something, but am too weak to do it - physically or mentally - do I have a choice? If I know what I should do, but don't know how, do I have a choice?[/b]

Yes. What's the problem with that?

How can good exist without evil?

Knowing and being able to choose are two different things. If I know I should do something, but am too weak to do it - physically or mentally - do I have a choice? If I know what I should do, but don't know how, do I have a choice?

Pretty obscure. Examples please.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
Nobody fails. All come to God in the end.

I Tim 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior. 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Rom. 14:11 It is written: `As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'

So everyone goes and stays in heaven?! I don't think this is
consistent with any branch of modern Christianity that I can think of.(*)

If not everyone goes and stays in heaven, then people fail to realize
their eternal destiny.

If people fail to realize their eternal destiny it can only be for two
reasons:

1) God created them (before they were knit in the womb) with an
incapacity for success;
2) God's ability to reach them through His means are ineffective.

Either way, God is incompetent.

Nemesio

---

* - (edit) Ivanhoe mentioned some progressive Roman Catholic theologians (read:
heretics) who believe that the concept of Hell is incompatable with the concept
of a loving God. He gave me a citation, but I lost it. 🙁

Originally posted by flyUnity
Remember that, the next time your little hut seems to
be burning to the ground. It just may be a smoke signal
that summons the grace of God.

Clearly a lot of evil and a little good took place in this story. If we cannot know the mind of God and what his real plans are then why have you somehow concluded that his plan was to save the man ? Maybe he just wanted to burn down the hut, maybe he was saving him so that he could commit greater evil somewhere else. We cannot know and to conclude that God wanted to save him is to second guess God.

Free Will in the Christian sense is the same free will that a slave has. That is you can do what your master tells you to do, which will normally entail some suffering, in the hope of a future reward (Heaven) or you can do something else and be punished (Hell) it doesnt even have to be something bad but merely something you were told not to do like not declare Jesus Christ as your saviour. You also get punished if you are not lucky enough to have heard of Christianity.

Originally posted by Nemesio
Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]Nobody fails. All come to God in the end.

I Tim 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior. 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Rom. 14:11 It is written: `As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow before me; every t ...[text shortened]... ll is incompatable with the concept
of a loving God. He gave me a citation, but I lost it. 🙁

[/b]Please see my response to chinking58 in the “I reject Jesus as saviour” thread page 8.

Either way, God is incompetent.

You can believe this, but you’re not likely to get anywhere.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
You can believe this, but you’re not likely to get anywhere.

It's not a 'belief.' It is a conclusion which can be logically (and simply) drawn
from the premises you set up for God and Creation.

I don't 'believe' that 2+2=4. I conclude it. Similarly, with the definitions and concepts
you have stated are part of God and His 'Plan,' one must conclude that He is either
incompetent or evil.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
It's not a 'belief.' It is a conclusion which can be logically (and simply) drawn
from the premises you set up for God and Creation.

I don't 'believe' that 2+2=4. I conclude it. Similarly, with the definitions and concepts
you have stated are part of God and His 'Plan,' one must conclude that He is either
incompetent or evil.

Nemesio[/b]

It's not a 'belief.' It is a conclusion which can be logically (and simply) drawn
from the premises you set up for God and Creation.

My premises don’t have anything to do with your incompetent God. Try reading the post that I cited.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]It's not a 'belief.' It is a conclusion which can be logically (and simply) drawn
from the premises you set up for God and Creation.

My premises don’t have anything to do with your incompetent God. Try reading the post that I cited.[/b]

It's very simple:

Do you believe people go to Hell? (I'm going to assume yes.)

If so, then you acknolwedge that people fail in their Divine Calling to
'come to God.'

As I see it, there can be only two reasons for this:

1) God made people sooooo dense and sooooo flawed that they can't
pick up on simple matters of faith in whatever criteria matter to God
(that is, God is an incompetent Creator);

or

2) God's message is sooooo obscure and sooooo difficult to follow that
well-meaning people just don't get it (God is an incompetent evangelist).

I suppose that we could have a third option -- that God is an evil bastard
who revels in the suffering of people -- but I'll assume that such an argument
is a waste of time.

What other options are there?

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
It's very simple:

Do you believe people go to Hell? (I'm going to assume yes.)

If so, then you acknolwedge that people fail in their Divine Calling to
'come to God.'

As I see it, there can be only two reasons for this:

1) God made people sooooo dense and sooooo flawed that they can't
pick up on simple matters of faith in whatever criteri ...[text shortened]... ll assume that such an argument
is a waste of time.

What other options are there?

Nemesio

4) God gave us a perfect divine nature that is made in his image, and we will all be saved in the end.

5) Our own willingness to blame everything on God and not take responsibility for our actions leads us to wallow in our own ignorance and suffering that much longer.

6) God is great enough to have given us free will and not be a tyrant.

7) Even though we don’t know who we are, we pretend like this doesn’t matter. When this approach leads us to suffering we either blame it on God who we don’t know, or we get on a public forum and pesture somebody who tries to give his opinion but doesn’t have all the answers.

8) We ask questions like “Why doesn’t my suffering instantly go away?” I’ve sinned, I’ve done things that have harmed others and lead to my own suffering, I see the way the world is and what people do to each other, but they’re all blameless. God was horrible enough to have given us life in the first place so it is all his fault. Everybody here on earth are victims who are not accountable for their actions.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
4) God gave us a perfect divine nature that is made in his image, and we will all be saved in the end.

5) Our own willingness to blame everything on God and not take responsibility for our actions leads us to wallow in our own ignorance and suffering that much longer.

6) God is great enough to have given us free will and not be a tyrant. ...[text shortened]...

is all his fault. Everybody here on earth are victims who are not accountable for their actions.

we get on a public forum and pesture somebody who tries to give his opinion but doesn’t have all the answers.

LOL, this is just plain funny no? 😀

You're just making things up that have nothing to do with the
premise being examined.

To remind you:
If people go to Hell, you acknolwedge that people fail in their Divine
Calling to 'come to God.'

Your other options were:

Originally posted by The Chess Express
4) God gave us a perfect divine nature that is made in his image, and we will all be saved in the end.

This runs contrary to the premise.

5) Our own willingness to blame everything on God and not take responsibility for our actions leads us to wallow in our own ignorance and suffering that much longer.

If it is 'our fault' but we didn't create ourselves and our natures, then
it is because of design that we are incapable of coming to God and,
thus, is God's fault (for He has infinite capacity and could rectify it).

Or, if it is 'our fault' because we can't interpret a message that is too
obscure, then it is also God's fault.

6) God is great enough to have given us free will and not be a tyrant.

Putting people in Hell for things that aren't their fault is being a
tyrant.

7) Even though we don’t know who we are, we pretend like this doesn’t matter. When this approach leads us to suffering we either blame it on God who we don’t know, or we get on a public forum and pesture somebody who tries to give his opinion but doesn’t have all the answers.

I'm not asking for 'answers.' I don't think any of it is God's fault, but
I don't start with the same premises that you do. I am asking you
to examine your premises and look at my conclusions and express to
me why they are false.

Or, if they are true, that you either worship an incompetent or evil God.

Or, (and this is my expectation), that you reject your premises start
anew.

8) We ask questions like “Why doesn’t my suffering instantly go away?” I’ve sinned, I’ve done things that have harmed others and lead to my own suffering, I see the way the world is and what people do to each other, but they’re all blameless. God was horrible enough to have given us life in the first place so it is all his fault. Everybody here on earth are victims who are not accountable for their actions.

This sounds like what I wrote. It's God's fault (using your model,
which I disagree with).

If you feel pestered, I'm truly sorry. But I find it 'pestering' for someone
to assert that the Bible is without flaws and so I speak up. If you
don't want to continue this conversation, I understand, but don't expect
me to remain silent if I see something objectionable in another post.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
You're just making things up that have nothing to do with the
premise being examined.

To remind you:
If people go to Hell, you acknolwedge that people fail in their Divine
Calling to 'come to God.'

Your other options were:

Originally posted by The Chess Express
4) God gave us a perfect divine nature that is made in his ima ...[text shortened]... but don't expect
me to remain silent if I see something objectionable in another post.

Nemesio

You're just making things up that have nothing to do with the
premise being examined.

To remind you:
If people go to Hell, you acknolwedge that people fail in their Divine
Calling to 'come to God.'

You’ve never understood my premise. All People go back to God in the end. Some learn the hard way, some the easy way. Edit This is why nobody fails.

This answers the rest of you’re post.