16 Jul 10
Originally posted by generalissimoI would say no.
there are parts of the NT which offer some impressive detailed account of what jesus said when he was alone, it seems unlikely that all of it is quoted verbatim.
should these parts be ignored as being later additions made-up to fill in the gaps?
16 Jul 10
Originally posted by generalissimoI'd like to see some of your examples.
there are parts of the NT which offer some impressive detailed account of what jesus said when he was alone, it seems unlikely that all of it is quoted verbatim.
should these parts be ignored as being later additions made-up to fill in the gaps?
17 Jul 10
Originally posted by jaywillwell, Im referring mainly to the part where is being tempted by the devil, and is apparently with no witness who could offer the details of what happened.
I'd like to see some of your examples.
or for example this little episode in mark chapter 15:
"37 And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?
38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
39 And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.
40 And when he returned, he found them asleep again, (for their eyes were heavy,) neither wist they what to answer him.
41 And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest..."
surely, could these have been his exact words if at least half the people present were sleeping?
17 Jul 10
We know nothing about Jesus for sure. Everything is known out of hearsay. It is written down decennia, even half a century after his death, by authors that didn't even were there when it happened.
We should know that the gospels was written of a reason, by some agenda.
17 Jul 10
3 edits
Originally posted by generalissimo================================
well, Im referring mainly to the part where is being tempted by the devil, and is apparently with no witness who could offer the details of what happened.
or for example this little episode in mark chapter 15:
"37 And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?
38 Watch ye a rely, could these have been his exact words if at least half the people present were sleeping?
well, Im referring mainly to the part where is being tempted by the devil, and is apparently with no witness who could offer the details of what happened.
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Those experiences He could have related to His disciples afterwards.
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or for example this little episode in mark chapter 15:
"37 And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?
38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
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There are times when I have been exceedingly drowsy but could still hear what was going on near me. I was powerless to participate because of fatique. But I was somewhat aware of my surroundings.
I don't regard the Gethsemene episode as too serious a problem for witnesses. But if so, this also He could have related to them afterwards.
After His resurrection and before His ascension He spoke about the kingdom of God with His disciples for a period of forty days:
" ... to the apostles whom He chose; to whom also He presented Himself alive after His suffering by many irrefutable proofs, appearing to them through a period of forty days and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God." (Acts 1:2b,3)
I suspect that these words we read from Jesus in Gethsemene were perhaps only a portion of many words He earnestly prayed.
But whenever I have mused on the question of whether we are reading the exact words of Jesus, I am willing to rest in each evangelist's report. I allow each to relate the things as he does and I willingly submit to their authority.
Some of the sayings in one Matthew seem to be presented in Luke but in different order. Even the order of the temptations presented by the Devil to Jesus are not in the exact same order in Matthew as they are in Luke.
So which order was it? I do not know. But I am willing to submit myself to the testimony of each evangelist to let him tell his story. I don't think anything major is lost in doing this.
And as the Lord told some Pharisees that they could strain out a gnat yet swallow a camel, we also can miss the main point to persue issues which are essentially non-issues in the larger scheme of things.