1. Donationbuckky
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    13 Apr '09 20:22
    I'm curious as to how many Christian became Christian through a subjective or internal spiritual experience verses just reading about the Christian religion ,and it seemed that way to go. Purely intellectual reasoning as to joining or not joining a religion seems almost to dry and it would sway only a few. So tell me what got you interested in Christianity. Was it through some experience that made you think you found the Truth? Or was it having someone explain how it works in Christianity, and that won you over.
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    13 Apr '09 22:011 edit
    Originally posted by buckky
    I'm curious as to how many Christian became Christian through a subjective or internal spiritual experience verses just reading about the Christian religion ,and it seemed that way to go. Purely intellectual reasoning as to joining or not joining a religion seems almost to dry and it would sway only a few. So tell me what got you interested in Christianity. W ...[text shortened]... he Truth? Or was it having someone explain how it works in Christianity, and that won you over.
    I suppose it is the question we are all looking to answer. What makes one believe something or disbelieve something? Beleif is a complex phenomenon that is not held hostage by objective facts alone. For example, I once had a debate with a woman over abortion. During the debate, I was making one great point after another and then she became tongue tied and at the very end of the debate looked at me and said I was a very good debater and should have been a lawyer. Then when I was licking my chops and going in for the kill thinking she would change her mind she just looked at me and said, "You know I think your right in what you say, but I still think women should have the right to have abortions." It was at that moment that I realized that her beliefs were a far greater foe than my reason and logic could tackle.

    I have always said that belief/faith is not blind. It takes at least some evidence to form a belief/faith, however, it is one of those things where there will always be some measure of doubt. I compare it to your relationships. No doubt, those who you are closest to you place your faith in them. You are NEVER 100% about them, but there are things about them that cause you to want to place your faith in them. Perhaps you like the way they think or simply love them for some unknown reason. As for myself, I fell in love with Christ and his teachings. In addition, however, I have evidences that tell me my faith has validity to go with my gut feelings.
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    13 Apr '09 22:48
    Originally posted by buckky
    I'm curious as to how many Christian became Christian through a subjective or internal spiritual experience verses just reading about the Christian religion ,and it seemed that way to go. Purely intellectual reasoning as to joining or not joining a religion seems almost to dry and it would sway only a few. So tell me what got you interested in Christianity. W ...[text shortened]... he Truth? Or was it having someone explain how it works in Christianity, and that won you over.
    Why does it have to be a matter of subjective VERSES objective ?

    Could not truth include both aspects ?
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    13 Apr '09 23:21
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Why does it have to be a matter of subjective VERSES objective ?

    Could not truth include both aspects ?
    i think jaywill there is a correlation between taking in knowledge, i.e. facts and spiritual truths and reaching spiritual maturity and also a side of experience, when we actually experience the benefits of applying the 'healthful teaching', don't you think? although perhaps Bucky is referring to 'pure', experience 🙂
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    13 Apr '09 23:58
    Both, but "subjective" is what made jesus real to me. Salvation is everyday life but religion is just words on a page.
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    14 Apr '09 02:37
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    i think jaywill there is a correlation between taking in knowledge, i.e. facts and spiritual truths and reaching spiritual maturity and also a side of experience, when we actually experience the benefits of applying the 'healthful teaching', don't you think? although perhaps Bucky is referring to 'pure', experience 🙂
    I think when we see how the healthy teaching changes our lives, and we know that we ourselves are not the source (because we tried before and failed) we are confirmed that Christ must really be working within.
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    14 Apr '09 02:41
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Both, but "subjective" is what made jesus real to me. Salvation is everyday life but religion is just words on a page.
    I concur. The Christians experience must grow into a daily and even moment to moment enjoyment of His Person.

    Though, often it is spontaneous and overflowing. We may not always be so conscious of His presence.

    Often we become aware only when we do something not pleasing to the Lord. Then "life and peace" turn into the sense of discord and unrest. We have stepped away from Him.

    This is like the physical body. When everything is okay we are not so aware of our body. When something is not well, we become aware of the problem.
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    14 Apr '09 08:201 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    I think when we see how the healthy teaching changes our lives, and we know that we ourselves are not the source (because we tried before and failed) we are confirmed that Christ must really be working within.
    yes, i would say its a culmination of things, putting on the 'mind of Christ', taking in knowledge of Christ and the Father (John17:3), and the operation of Gods Holy spirit, (Galatians 5:22,23) 🙂
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    14 Apr '09 08:52
    Originally posted by buckky
    I'm curious as to how many Christian became Christian through a subjective or internal spiritual experience verses just reading about the Christian religion ,and it seemed that way to go. Purely intellectual reasoning as to joining or not joining a religion seems almost to dry and it would sway only a few. So tell me what got you interested in Christianity. W ...[text shortened]... he Truth? Or was it having someone explain how it works in Christianity, and that won you over.
    i thought it is a good idea. the idea someone would sacrifice himself for another seems a nice thing to do. i considered the pros and found them nice. i looked for cons and didn't find any. basically my life isn't any different than that of an atheist, but i occasionally feel comfort knowing there is more meaning to the universe, not a random and fortunate weave of physics.Put simple, Christianity and worthwhile religions in general don't ask you to do anything that a normal, decent person wouldn't do. The fact that muslims bomb children and christians invented that nice inquisition is simply religion misunderstood.

    as long as you have a firm grasp on your spirituality, you are "more" than just an atheist. atheists have come to term with their mortality. we expect more and as such the more we approach old age and death we are more hopeful and happy. a good and fulfilling life means more for you if not only you would leave an impact in this universe but also entitle you to an afterlife, not oblivion.
  10. Cape Town
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    14 Apr '09 09:381 edit
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    i thought it is a good idea. the idea someone would sacrifice himself for another seems a nice thing to do. i considered the pros and found them nice. i looked for cons and didn't find any. basically my life isn't any different than that of an atheist, but i occasionally feel comfort knowing there is more meaning to the universe, not a random and fortunate would leave an impact in this universe but also entitle you to an afterlife, not oblivion.
    You just mustn't think too hard about any of the concepts or it might shatter you delusion.
    The three key concepts you mention:
    1. Sacrifice.
    2. 'Meaning' in life.
    3. The 'afterlife'.
    simply do not stand up to scrutiny.

    If I presented you with a religion that gave you even more rewarding delusions, would you convert?
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    14 Apr '09 11:30
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    You just mustn't think too hard about any of the concepts or it might shatter you delusion.
    The three key concepts you mention:
    1. Sacrifice.
    2. 'Meaning' in life.
    3. The 'afterlife'.
    simply do not stand up to scrutiny.

    If I presented you with a religion that gave you even more rewarding delusions, would you convert?
    why convert? christianity has as much probablity of being the one true religion as islam or budhism. and what can you give me more than christianity? a jesus that offers cookies in addition to eternal life?

    to convert, you would have to prove to me that jesus was a pedophile, or a rapist or he wasn't the son of god. at which point i will probably be converted to a jew. and immediately after that i will realize i don't like the ot and be converted to someone that believes in a benevolent, non intervening all powerful deity that created the universe and gave us conscience. meaning i would be exactly as i am now minus the jesus.

    why don't those concepts stand up to scrutiny?
    sacrifice? i can accept it wasn't really necessary. it has uses though as an example. live your life for others, be prepared to sacrifice yourself so others life could be improved and inspired to sacrifice themselves in turn. it doesn't even have to be the ultimate sacrifice, just something to honor the jesus dood for the slightly uncomfortable time he spent on the cross and getting his ass beat up in mel gibson's movie.

    meaning? i already said atheists can find meaning in life. to live a fulfilling life and leave something behind. but as you aproach death, you begin to ask yourself what is the point? where am i going? what would it nothingness feel like? this is where religious people are different. they have hope. death is not the end. it is the beginning. of something potentially great. and they lived their life for the betterment of mankind AND to please an invisible entity that gave them life in the first place. atheists say they could do without. i say what is there to lose to believe?

    afterlife? it is better than oblivion. what is not to like? sure it could suk. sure it could be boring. sure it could be hell for anyone but mormons for not choosing the correct religion. i hope all get into heaven club. i really do. but some will get vip passes. and some will get cookies. and others will be given a broom and asked to mop the floors.
  12. Cape Town
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    14 Apr '09 12:35
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    why convert?
    Because the delusion being offered is better than the one you currently use.

    christianity has as much probablity of being the one true religion as islam or budhism. and what can you give me more than christianity? a jesus that offers cookies in addition to eternal life?
    My question was based on the supposition that I could offer you a better delusion. To claim that there is no better delusion is avoidance.

    to convert, you would have to prove to me that jesus was a pedophile, or a rapist or he wasn't the son of god.
    Odd set of options. Presumably the first two would prove the last, so the last is sufficient. But since you already admit that your belief that he was the son of God is delusional anyway, why should I prove it?

    why don't those concepts stand up to scrutiny?
    sacrifice? i can accept it wasn't really necessary. it has uses though as an example. live your life for others, be prepared to sacrifice yourself so others life could be improved and inspired to sacrifice themselves in turn. it doesn't even have to be the ultimate sacrifice, just something to honor the jesus dood for the slightly uncomfortable time he spent on the cross and getting his ass beat up in mel gibson's movie.

    So you quite elegantly show that it does not stand up to your own scrutiny. Essentially you end up admitting that Jesus' 'sacrifice' amounted to little more than letting himself be crucified just as an example of someone being crucified. Doesn't really make any sense now does it?

    meaning? i already said atheists can find meaning in life. to live a fulfilling life and leave something behind. but as you aproach death, you begin to ask yourself what is the point? where am i going? what would it nothingness feel like? this is where religious people are different. they have hope. death is not the end. it is the beginning. of something potentially great. and they lived their life for the betterment of mankind AND to please an invisible entity that gave them life in the first place. atheists say they could do without. i say what is there to lose to believe?
    So it gives you a feeling of meaning that you think feels more meaningful than an atheists feeling of meaning. I rather doubt you can really get anywhere with that argument. Besides you will quite easily loose to a typical egotistical person who believes the universe revolves around them. Why not go for egoism if meaning is what you crave?

    afterlife? it is better than oblivion. what is not to like? sure it could suk. sure it could be boring. sure it could be hell for anyone but mormons for not choosing the correct religion. i hope all get into heaven club. i really do. but some will get vip passes. and some will get cookies. and others will be given a broom and asked to mop the floors.
    But even the most basic thinking about it results in the realization that it is little more than wishful thinking. If you tried to describe to me exactly who or what would actually get the so called 'afterlife' you talk about you would soon realize that it wasn't you and you probably have no interest whatsoever in that entity getting into heaven. As I said - it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
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    14 Apr '09 15:241 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Because the delusion being offered is better than the one you currently use.

    [b]christianity has as much probablity of being the one true religion as islam or budhism. and what can you give me more than christianity? a jesus that offers cookies in addition to eternal life?

    My question was based on the supposition that I could offer you a better d er in that entity getting into heaven. As I said - it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.[/b]
    To claim that there is no better delusion is avoidance.
    i am perfectly happy with this one. but do try and come up with a better one, i am open

    since you already admit that your belief that he was the son of God is delusional anyway
    when did i do that?

    Presumably the first two would prove the last,
    If the bible would ask me to believe in god's rapist murderous son, i would take up a new religion. if satan was the only god available i would be an atheist. even if you knew for a fact that god is a murderous evil entity i would not worship him. i would believe because it is a fact but not worship him. the first two don't disprove the last.

    Essentially you end up admitting that Jesus' 'sacrifice' amounted to little more than letting himself be crucified just as an example of someone being crucified. Doesn't really make any sense now does it?

    why doesn't make sense? to whom doesn't it make sense? are you perhaps talking about the camel humping savages of those days? the romans, the most civilized people on the planet at the time had barbers and toilets and baths and oh yeah, killed gladiators and christians and slaves for sadistic pleasure. so do you think "he died for your sins and was resurrected" would have the same PR value as "he talked about being nice to each other, married, had 6 kidz and died of old age".
    not to mention that i said "i can accept it wasn't really necessary" as in i don't actually accept it. but even from an atheist point of view it has the merits i mentioned.

    Besides you will quite easily loose to a typical egotistical person who believes the universe revolves around them. Why not go for egoism if meaning is what you crave?
    odds are great you will wind up in the great barbecue. although i wish heaven for everyone, though murderers and mormons and scientologists must be kept in the slums of heaven, i may not be right. so to be safe, be good.
    and lose what? i was discussing the atheist argument you can lead a good, fulfilling, meaningful life without religion. and i said that religion, responsible religion adds a bonus. we are discussing the use of religion not acts considered to disqualify someone from a pleasant afterlife

    So it gives you a feeling of meaning that you think feels more meaningful than an atheists feeling of meaning
    i would be curious how you formed this wonderful nonsense out of what i said.

    But even the most basic thinking about it results in the realization that it is little more than wishful thinking.
    Bingo! Yahtzee! Gin! Straight flush! you got it. this is what religion is all about. it is wishful thinking. or as we non-pagans like to call it, faith. faith is hoping for something to be true even if you have no or very little proof. faith that jesus is the son of god. faith that mohammed was the prophet of allah. faith. we don't know for sure. we can only guess. and believe or not what holy books say. and the amount we believe.

    science, the religion of atheists, cannot use wishful thinking. i tried that whenever i had some math papers. "man i wish it were true that 2=1 then mah result would make sense". scientists cannot make a god powered vehicle. scientists cannot assume that god is real and from then form new theories. (that is why i call creationists pseudo-scientists which even that is a kind name). religious folks don't have those restrictions.
    warning, i am again debating from an atheists point of view: if a religious person doesn't bet all his money on a horse in hopes god will make it win, if he doesn't let his children die rather than get a transfusion, if he doesn't behead his daughter, how different is he from an atheist? if a christian doctor praises jesus and feels happy when he saves a kid, is he any less of a person than the atheist doctor who just feels happy when he saves a kid? what difference is there between the two?

    If you tried to describe to me exactly who or what would actually get the so called 'afterlife' you talk about you would soon realize that it wasn't you and you probably have no interest whatsoever in that entity getting into heaven
    we don't know. faith, remember. all we can do is do our best. that is what everyone should be doing, atheists included. do our best to do good. i like to think that my loving god would not let a good muslim or a buddhist go to hell. but i don't know. christianity suits me and i believe firmly that the j man is the son of god which exists and created the universe(s). this belief will not get me fired or not hired at a job. will not make me starve or win any money. will not get me a date. it does give me a warm tingling feeling. which is very comforting.
  14. Standard membersumydid
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    16 Apr '09 05:16
    Originally posted by buckky
    I'm curious as to how many Christian became Christian through a subjective or internal spiritual experience verses just reading about the Christian religion ,and it seemed that way to go. Purely intellectual reasoning as to joining or not joining a religion seems almost to dry and it would sway only a few. So tell me what got you interested in Christianity. W ...[text shortened]... he Truth? Or was it having someone explain how it works in Christianity, and that won you over.
    What got me interested in Christianity was my absolute hate and disrespect for it and all its proponents. I campaigned against it (not literally, but debated against it every chance I got) for most of my life. And then in a completely unexpected turnaround... I became a Christian as the result of an instant, 'miraculous' transformation. I've been a zealous Christian in all the years since. I say miraculous transformation because I know first hand what I was before and what I became. I remember not understanding and being bored and frustrated by the Bible whereas immediately after my rebirth, I hungered for the word of God and understood it very well.

    The really bizarre thing is I remember as an agnostic I was always saying if God could just reveal Himself to me or perform a miracle for me I would believe... and, nothing. But since the night I transformed, I have witnessed the very things I asked for.

    I love dear ol' Dad and I look forward to being with Him.
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