19 Aug 10
1 edit
Only a few...
Only a view, a mere handful at best, in any generation anywhere on the face of this green earth prefer the pain of knowing to the pleasures of ignorance, the risk of being right to every temporal security of being wrong. In what context? In virtually all facets of daily life, in confronting ultimate human realities... whether in family, academic, athletic, romantic, parental, social, career, business, financial, legal, medical, national, global or spiritual realms. Why? Goes well beyond Freud's 'pain/pleasure principle'. Mal Pancoast was on his game the day he wrote, "The truth will set you free but first it will piss you off." Thoughts?
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19 Aug 10
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyYou talk about a choice that doesn't exist; 'knowing' and 'ignorance' are not part of the same cognitive process - they cannot be.
[b]Only a few...
Only a view, a mere handful at best, in any generation anywhere on the face of this green earth prefer the pain of knowing to the pleasures of ignorance, the risk of being right to every temporal security of being wrong. In what context? In virtually all facets of daily life, in confronting ultimate human realit ...[text shortened]... Thoughts?
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19 Aug 10
Originally posted by divegeesterYour protestation smacks of hypocrisy. One either knows, or one is ignorant. That pivotal lever is a choice. Your professed 'knowledge' of some other field of understanding cannot exist without the see-saw.
You talk about a choice that doesn't exist; 'knowing' and 'ignorance' are not part of the same cognitive process - they cannot be.
20 Aug 10
1 edit
Originally posted by FreakyKBHThanks for the insult - where exactly is the Hypocrisy in my post?
Your protestation smacks of hypocrisy. One either knows, or one is ignorant. That pivotal lever is a choice. Your professed 'knowledge' of some other field of understanding cannot exist without the see-saw.
20 Aug 10
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby"The truth will set you free but first it will piss you off."
[b]Only a few...
Only a view, a mere handful at best, in any generation anywhere on the face of this green earth prefer the pain of knowing to the pleasures of ignorance, the risk of being right to every temporal security of being wrong. In what context? In virtually all facets of daily life, in confronting ultimate human realit ...[text shortened]... Thoughts?
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That's the truth!
I think the reason why is because our sin nature rebels against it. The truth has it that we belong to our maker, but our "self" says otherwise.
The one that has the Spirit of Truth indwelling as a result of belief and trust in what God has done at the cross on his behalf has that conflict occurring within everyday. (And is aware of it)
It reminds me of this verse: Galatians 5:17 - For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
But also we are comforted in knowing: Romans 8:16 - The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
These are my thoughts. It is beyond the scope of the unbelievers' experience to comprehend these truths so long as he resists the truth. He can read the words and understand their meanings, but as long as he persists in rejecting the proffered gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ, he will never received the spirit of truth whereby the only true enlightenment can be had.
In the mean time he runs around like a chicken with it's head chopped off arguing that nothing is real and that there's no absolute truth and no God. 🙄
20 Aug 10
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby“….Only a view, a mere handful at best, in any generation anywhere on the face of this green earth prefer the pain of knowing to the pleasures of ignorance,…”
[b]Only a few...
Only a view, a mere handful at best, in any generation anywhere on the face of this green earth prefer the pain of knowing to the pleasures of ignorance, the risk of being right to every temporal security of being wrong. In what context? In virtually all facets of daily life, in confronting ultimate human realit ...[text shortened]... Thoughts?
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That could only be true if:
1, the “pleasures” you talk about here is the belief that there is a God and, more importantly, an afterlife.
2, the “pain” you talk about here is knowing that when you die, you just die.
20 Aug 10
2 edits
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyWait, why are you only focusing on cases where pain attends knowledge and/or pleasure attends ignorance? There should be many more cases to consider given that there are at least 3 different dimensions: one is the conative attitude one has toward some proposition; another is the cognitive attitude one has toward the same proposition; a third is (in the case of belief one way or the other) whether that person is correct or mistaken regarding the proposition. There are cases where one could be blissfully knowledgeable, just as there are cases where one could be blissfully ignorant; there are cases where one could be ambivalent regardless if he is knowledgeable or ignorant; there are cases where one could feel a sense of urgency about his being ignorant, just as he could feel a sense of urgency about his being knowledgeable; etc. So I am confused why you restrict attention to only a couple possibilities, almost like you are setting up some sort of false dichotomy.
[b]Only a few...
Only a view, a mere handful at best, in any generation anywhere on the face of this green earth prefer the pain of knowing to the pleasures of ignorance, the risk of being right to every temporal security of being wrong. In what context? In virtually all facets of daily life, in confronting ultimate human realit Thoughts?
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The other thing I would point out is that even in cases where one has knowledge of some unpleasant or sinister aspect of the world, it doesn't follow that he must stand in constant pain for this. Suppose one would prefer that P not be the case (on some hypothetical all-else-equal preference construal); but nevertheless believes that P is the case; and is in fact correct in that belief. Then this is an example where there is some dissonance between the way the world is and presents to us and the way one would prefer the world to be. This touches on a major source of existential conflict and suffering: craving for the world to be something other than what one takes it to be. In that case, I see no easy cookie-cutter solutions, but there are ways to alleviate the suffering. Some such points of dissonance are within our control to at least some extent, and we can endeavor to conform them. For those beyond our control, it is best to come to understand them for what they are; come to healthy acceptance of them; and let the cravings lose their grip through ego dissolution. Again, I do not see any easy answers here, but (as one example) this is something toward which some forms of dharma practice are oriented. In contrast, sticking your proverbial head in the sand or feigning ignorance would not seem too effective (nor preferable) to me.
My other comment would be that I find it ironic that so many offer up "faith" as a solution to this sort of existential hardship (which is a separate issue from what I think of faith in epistemic terms, where yet again I cannot find much to recommend faith). I think faith is (or at least many forms of it are) typically counteractive in this regard because it tends to promote ego strengthening coupled with hope, both of which can present major obstacles in my opinion. I like the cautionary words of Thich Nhat Hanh (Peace is Every Step) on the subject of hope:
Hope is important, because it can make the present moment less difficult to bear. If we believe that tomorrow will be better, we can bear a hardship today. But that is the most that hope can do for us - to make some hardship lighter. When I think deeply about the nature of hope, I see something tragic. Since we cling to our hope in the future, we do not focus our energies and capabilities on the present moment. We use hope to believe something better will happen in the future, that we will arrive at peace, or the Kingdom of God. Hope becomes a kind of obstacle. If you can refrain from hoping, you can bring yourself entirely into the present moment and discover the joy that is already here.
Enlightenment, peace, and joy will not be granted by someone else. The well is within us, and if we dig deeply in the present moment, the water will spring forth. We must go back to the present moment in order to be really alive....
Western civilization places so much emphasis on the idea of hope that we sacrifice the present moment. Hope is for the future. It cannot help us discover joy, peace, or enlightenment in the present moment. Many religions are based on the notion of hope, and this teaching about refraining from hope may create a strong reaction. But the shock can bring about something important. I do not mean that you should not have hope, but that hope is not enough. Hope can create an obstacle for you, and if you dwell in the energy of hope, you will not bring yourself back entirely into the present moment. If you re-channel those energies into being aware of what is going on in the present moment, you will be able to make a breakthrough and discover joy and peace right in the present moment, inside of yourself and all around you.
21 Aug 10
Originally posted by LemonJelloThanks, LJ, for your thoughtful contribution to our casual conversation. Any chance
Wait, why are you only focusing on cases where pain attends knowledge and/or pleasure attends ignorance? There should be many more cases to consider given that there are at least 3 different dimensions: one is the conative attitude one has toward some proposition; another is the cognitive attitude one has toward the same proposition; a third is (in the c ...[text shortened]... iscover joy and peace right in the present moment, inside of yourself and all around you.[/i]
you could distill your own point of view to a brief paragragh of three or four lines?
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25 Aug 10
1 edit
Originally posted by FreakyKBHRight, that would just be a further waste of my time. I mean, the post isn't that long (particularly since a good chunk of it is just a quote). If you guys cannot be bothered to at least try to find the main points for yourself, then I consider that your problem.
... guess not!