1. Joined
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    12 Feb '13 14:50
    I used to be an atheist, but even then I liked the idea of 'Original Sin' I think the bible is spot on with this story. I agree that man separated from other animals by knowledge / awareness... Something happened, like HAL in a space odessy, they became to aware, started manipulating there environment.

    It would be nice to think they discovered fire and that was it, but from what I've read around the earliest 'original sinners' were the clovis people. There spear heads are found all over the world. In Biology 'Carrying Capacity' is the maximum number of animals an environment can contain support. I think the idea of original sin is braking this capacity. The clovis people are the ones who hunted the wholly mammoth to extinction. You have to ask how did a monkey who evolved in a warm part of africa do that, they must have been chronically over populated even then, and hunting food where ever they can get it.

    Anyway... to ask the forums, do you think Original Sin has scientific merit?
  2. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
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    12 Feb '13 15:56
    Originally posted by e4chris
    I used to be an atheist, but even then I liked the idea of 'Original Sin' I think the bible is spot on with this story. I agree that man separated from other animals by knowledge / awareness... Something happened, like HAL in a space odessy, they became to aware, started manipulating there environment.

    It would be nice to think they discovered fire and t ...[text shortened]... n get it.

    Anyway... to ask the forums, do you think Original Sin has scientific merit?
    As far as I am concerned, the whole concept of 'original sin' is a scam, a filthy one at that, a detestable one, designed by men to suck people into their religion, which just co-incidentally sucks them into the political power of the ones starting the religion. It's all about building power at the expense of duped people who give up their own brains to the depravity of religion.
  3. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    12 Feb '13 16:00
    Originally posted by e4chris
    I used to be an atheist, but even then I liked the idea of 'Original Sin' I think the bible is spot on with this story. I agree that man separated from other animals by knowledge / awareness... Something happened, like HAL in a space odessy, they became to aware, started manipulating there environment.

    It would be nice to think they discovered fire and t ...[text shortened]... n get it.

    Anyway... to ask the forums, do you think Original Sin has scientific merit?
    Originally mankind was more of a scavenger/gatherer than a hunter/gatherer. Having mere hand axes did not lend itself to big game hunting. Mankind's original sin (metaphorically speaking) was technology. He ate from the tree of knowledge. Improved weapons made it possible to effectively and actively hunt big game. The result was the extermination of the megafauna of almost every continent that mankind inhabited. The Wooly Mammoth is only one example among many.

    Once the megafauna had become effectively exterminated, mankind turned to agriculture. The ability to control his food supply alienated mankind from nature completely. If you take a more pantheist view of the world then this is how the original sin of technological thinking led inevitably toward an alienation from nature (and from god).

    The natural world became something for mankind to own, exploit, consume, use up and despoil. The intricate and multifaceted web of connections that linked mankind in a holistic union with the rest of the natural world were severed. Even as mankind has prospered greatly, he has been sowing the seeds for his ultimate destruction. The natural can bear his excesses no longer. Mankind was expelled from the Garden because the very act of being human was a sin.
  4. Joined
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    12 Feb '13 16:021 edit
    depravity, is the nazis or the romans, i would not accuse christians of depravity,

    you certainly have a strong opinion there though... this is the thing to side with the christians... When Mendel a priest, discovered genetics, the mechanics of it, he used it to bread pea plants, when darwin a scientist discovered genetics, it got turned into eugenics and europe self destructed...
  5. Joined
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    12 Feb '13 16:16
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Originally mankind was more of a scavenger/gatherer than a hunter/gatherer. Having mere hand axes did not lend itself to big game hunting. Mankind's original sin (metaphorically speaking) was technology. He ate from the tree of knowledge. Improved weapons made it possible to effectively and actively hunt big game. The result was the extermination of the meg ...[text shortened]... no longer. Mankind was expelled from the Garden because the very act of being human was a sin.
    What else did they wipe out? agree since the clovis people we have been chronically overpopulated, like we live on a dice role of what we can invent in time to keep up.
  6. Joined
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    12 Feb '13 17:14
    Originally posted by e4chris
    I used to be an atheist, but even then I liked the idea of 'Original Sin' I think the bible is spot on with this story. I agree that man separated from other animals by knowledge / awareness... Something happened, like HAL in a space odessy, they became to aware, started manipulating there environment.

    It would be nice to think they discovered fire and t ...[text shortened]... n get it.

    Anyway... to ask the forums, do you think Original Sin has scientific merit?
    My first reaction is to ask why you think non-human animals are not "aware" and/or, don't "know" things. I'm not sure exactly what these words might mean to you that justifies saying that. But other animals seem to be aware and to know things, such as a pet knowing what sounds you make that tell them you are fixing their dinner, and being aware that you are making those sounds and their food is about to be ready. i like the simple use of such words.

    I think Original Sin as a concept is much deeper than the idea that something happened to give humans an attribute that led to a practice that is somehow intrinsically detrimental (evil?). But it could be that the concept was an early attempt to explain in myth, that aspect us, which I think myths generally attempt to do -- explain basic things about us. On that I tend to agree with you.

    So I will await further developments in this thread.
  7. Joined
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    12 Feb '13 17:25
    Originally posted by JS357
    My first reaction is to ask why you think non-human animals are not "aware" and/or, don't "know" things. I'm not sure exactly what these words might mean to you that justifies saying that. But other animals seem to be aware and to know things, such as a pet knowing what sounds you make that tell them you are fixing their dinner, and being aware that you are ma ...[text shortened]... On that I tend to agree with you.

    So I will await further developments in this thread.
    What i meant was not aware, but too aware, like HAL, they realised whatever rules were governing there surroundings they didn't have to follow them anymore. if that makes sense.
  8. Donationrwingett
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    12 Feb '13 18:06
    Originally posted by JS357
    My first reaction is to ask why you think non-human animals are not "aware" and/or, don't "know" things. I'm not sure exactly what these words might mean to you that justifies saying that. But other animals seem to be aware and to know things, such as a pet knowing what sounds you make that tell them you are fixing their dinner, and being aware that you are ma ...[text shortened]... On that I tend to agree with you.

    So I will await further developments in this thread.
    Being 'aware' is not the problem, but being 'self-aware' is. The contemplation of the self as being distinct from all else. This, at the root level, is what the expulsion from the Garden was. Mankind's ability to conceptualize himself as being separate and distinct from nature in turn led to his physical separation and alienation from nature (god). Mankind was expelled from the Garden precisely because he was able to conceptualize that expulsion.
  9. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    12 Feb '13 19:24
    Originally posted by e4chris
    I used to be an atheist, but even then I liked the idea of 'Original Sin' I think the bible is spot on with this story. I agree that man separated from other animals by knowledge / awareness... Something happened, like HAL in a space odessy, they became to aware, started manipulating there environment.

    It would be nice to think they discovered fire and t ...[text shortened]... n get it.

    Anyway... to ask the forums, do you think Original Sin has scientific merit?
    Not to take issue with your theory directly, but Clovis points are only found in the Americas. Likely antecedants are found in northeast Asia, but unless you're buying into the (probably unsound and at the very least highly controversial) Solutrean Hypothesis, that's your lot I'm afraid. I reckon they probably did do for the American megafauna though. It has often been suggested that they may have simply been to stupid and well-fed to realise they were in danger!
  10. SubscriberSuzianne
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    12 Feb '13 20:41
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    Not to take issue with your theory directly, but Clovis points are only found in the Americas. Likely antecedants are found in northeast Asia, but unless you're buying into the (probably unsound and at the very least highly controversial) Solutrean Hypothesis, that's your lot I'm afraid. I reckon they probably did do for the American megafauna though ...[text shortened]... ggested that they may have simply been to stupid and well-fed to realise they were in danger!
    Yes, well, the Native Americans never did manage to wipe out the thousands upon thousands of bison that used to roam the plains of North America in the over 10,000 years they lived there. And they were probably the biggest megafauna around. It wasn't until the white man came with their 'boomsticks' and their 'iron horse' that the bison finally became endangered.
  11. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    12 Feb '13 20:42
    If only somebody could come up with an original sin.
  12. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    12 Feb '13 20:42
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Yes, well, the Native Americans never did manage to wipe out the thousands upon thousands of bison that used to roam the plains of North America in the over 10,000 years they lived there. And they were probably the biggest megafauna around. It wasn't until the white man came with their 'boomsticks' and their 'iron horse' that the bison finally became endangered.
    They did exterminate the wild horses, it seems.
  13. Joined
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    12 Feb '13 20:43
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    If only somebody could come up with an original sin.
    Everything is so derivative of Sade these days.
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    12 Feb '13 20:45
    *Waiting for a Sweetest Taboo joke*
  15. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    12 Feb '13 20:56
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Yes, well, the Native Americans never did manage to wipe out the thousands upon thousands of bison that used to roam the plains of North America in the over 10,000 years they lived there. And they were probably the biggest megafauna around. It wasn't until the white man came with their 'boomsticks' and their 'iron horse' that the bison finally became endangered.
    They were pretty far from the biggest of the megafauna. It is curious how they managed to dodge the bullet though.
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