Originally posted by galveston75The dates are made up and you can't see that and see the point I'm trying to make? And you call me a twit...Lol.
The dates are made up and you can't see that and see the point I'm trying to make? And you call me a twit...Lol.
And you can't see that things are worse now then in the past? 10 or 20 or 30 or whatever years one might refer to? I guess not as your missing the whole point of the Bible's referring to "A" diffinent time in the history of mankind getting worse then it has ever been.
Deny that it's not......
What dates are made up?
And you can't see that things are worse now then in the past? 10 or 20 or 30 or whatever years one might refer to? I guess not as your missing the whole point of the Bible's referring to "A" diffinent time in the history of mankind getting worse then it has ever been.
I see many things are better. I really do not see any grounds to say that things are worse now. War, genocide, sexual abuse and economic recession all happened in the past and probably more frequently. You seriously are deranged.
Anyway, Jesus himself said he did not know when the last day would be. He said that it would be like a thief in the night. Two men might be ploughing in a field and one suddenly will be taken up. Jesus warned his disciples against those who claimed to know when the last day would be. Such eschatological speculations are futile.
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Originally posted by galveston75Stop.......engage your brain..........and read what i write.
You know I think you're really serious here aren't you? I have no doubt that your an intelligent guy but I think you hate the Bible so much that you are closed minded in a few things.
So if things have not changed even in the last few decades on this earth, would you feel as comfortable say taking a leasurely hike thru the lands of the Middle East now yourself can deny that things are not worse now then just a few decades ago. But you might...
I don't hate the Bible, it's a book, it's an inanimate object and i have no reason to hate it. I just think for the large part of your time posting on here you spout a preposterous amount of twoddle. My beef is with the drivel you spew over the forum, not the Bible.
So the world is getting worse? Utter rubbish, this is a conversation i've had with Rob more than once, it seems to be a favourtite JW theme. Conrau has dealt with your paranoia, but i'll add a few more -
Abolition of slavery
Womens rights
End of the Cold War
Workers Rights
Four things that have changed the world for the better.
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Originally posted by Proper KnobAs the bible says yes to slavery, no to womens rights, (don't know about cold war), no for workers rights, then out of the biblical perspective the world is getting worse.
So the world is getting worse? Utter rubbish, this is a conversation i've had with Rob more than once, it seems to be a favourtite JW theme. Conrau has dealt with your paranoia, but i'll add a few more -
Abolition of slavery
Womens rights
End of the Cold War
Workers Rights
Four things that have changed the world for the better.
Originally posted by galveston75So you had to go back 30 years to find something to support your case?
Deny it all you want. That's your choice. An article from 1980's. I would guess things are worse now?
Even so, you don't actually provide much support, all we have is speculation. Not one hard statistic. Every time you mention a statistic, it is pointed out that the statistic does not actually reflect real differences in crime but rather is a combination of factors including how much crime is reported etc. Then the writer speculates about percentages of actual crime.
Of course, crime is not the only indicator of an increasing of lawlessness. Just look at the general disregard for God’s laws.
Maybe there are less Christians?
Consider also the shocking atrocities committed in our 20th century. When in all human history was there anything to compare with the carefully planned execution of 6 million Jews in Nazi concentration camps during World War II? or the total death toll from that war—55,000,000?
Well we had a larger population than previously, so raw numbers don't tell us anything.
What percentage of people died violently during Jesus time? What percentage during the 20th Century? Lets have some real statistics.
So would you agree that since 1980 things have got better? If so, is your choice of date rather biased?
Originally posted by FabianFnasOMG, Seriously? Then the world is becoming a better place by going against the Bible. I suppose if you have a wife, she's forbidden to ever speak in church and keeps her head covered, you keep Kosher, and you sacrificed animals at your marriage and the dedication of your children. Yeah, things really went downhill when people started eating shrimp and stopped killing birds when they got married.
As the bible says yes to slavery, no to womens rights, (don't know about cold war), no for workers rights, then out of the biblical perspective the world is getting worse.
Originally posted by pawnhandlerIf she was living in a fundamentalistic way, then she would be like this. But then, on the other hand, she wouldn't ever be my wife.
OMG, Seriously? Then the world is becoming a better place by going against the Bible. I suppose if you have a wife, she's forbidden to ever speak in church and keeps her head covered, you keep Kosher, and you sacrificed animals at your marriage and the dedication of your children. Yeah, things really went downhill when people started eating shrimp and stopped killing birds when they got married.
Yes, if more people lived fundamentalistic, then the world would be worse. I'm glad that fundamentalism loses ground.
Originally posted by Conrau KSo the signs he gave means nothing to you then? So you pick and choose what you want out of the Bible it seems...
Anyway, Jesus himself said he did not know when the last day would be. He said that it would be like a thief in the night. Two men might be ploughing in a field and one suddenly will be taken up. Jesus warned his disciples against those who claimed to know when the last day would be. Such eschatological speculations are futile.
Originally posted by galveston75The sad thing is that you believe you were told to look for signs, and so you see signs that are not there. You see them because you want to believe they are there not because they are actually there and you will continue to see them regardless of the evidence to the contrary that is presented to you. For some reason you desire the end of the world. Why is that?
So the signs he gave means nothing to you then?
Originally posted by galveston75I do not see them as meaningless; I just do not see them as warning signs (Jesus explicitly tells us not to look for warning signs.) Perhaps you have to look for other meanings.
So the signs he gave means nothing to you then? So you pick and choose what you want out of the Bible it seems...
Originally posted by twhiteheadGo back to Matt 24 and tell me why those are not happening now?
The sad thing is that you believe you were told to look for signs, and so you see signs that are not there. You see them because you want to believe they are there not because they are actually there and you will continue to see them regardless of the evidence to the contrary that is presented to you. For some reason you desire the end of the world. Why is that?
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Originally posted by Conrau KWhat? Are you really serious? Have you gotten so far from the Bible that you can't read and grasp what Jesus is saying? Do you really not see the warnings here in Matt 24?
I do not see them as meaningless; I just do not see them as warning signs (Jesus explicitly tells us not to look for warning signs.) Perhaps you have to look for other meanings.
If these are not serious warning for us all to learn of, what the heck is all this for? When in your mind will all this happen?
True no one knows the hour, only the Father (not Jesus, the son "Matt 24:36" ) but the warnings are to tell us it is the "season" as is described in Matt 24:32.
If you can't see the season then you've lost the spiritual insight you need my friend. Perhaps it's your leaders of your church that aren't teaching you because they don't see it themselves..
Originally posted by galveston75No. Your relentless speculation about the end-times is totally opposed to what Jesus taught. Jesus said to be wary of those who claim to know when the day will be or who look for signs:
What? Are you really serious? Have you gotten so far from the Bible that you can't read and grasp what Jesus is saying? Do you really not see the warnings here in Matt 24?
If these are not serious warning for us all to learn of, what the heck is all this for? When in your mind will all this happen?
True no one knows the hour, only the Father (not Jes ...[text shortened]... leaders of your church that aren't teaching you because they don't see it themselves..
32 But of that day or hour no man knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father. 33 Take heed, watch and pray. For you know not when the time is. 34 Even as a man who, going into a far country, left his house and gave authority to his servants over every work and commanded the porter to watch. 35 Watch therefore (for you know not when the lord of the house comes, at even, or at midnight, or at the cock crowing, or in the morning): 36 Lest coming on a sudden, he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch. Mark 13: 32-37
We are not to speculate about when the end shall occur. We are not to know this:
It is not for you to know the time or moments, which the Father has put in his own power. Acts 1:7
Matthew 24 proves my point. The end times will not arrive until the proclamation of the gospel to all nations. As you ought to know, there are many people who have never heard of the gospel. In some countries, the Bible is even suppressed.
Many before you have speculated about the eschaton. Many have claimed to have calculated when the end will occur. The millenarians did so a thousand years ago. They were wrong. Many since have obsessed over the question. Perhaps it is time for humility on your part to admit that God's mind is not so obvious.
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Originally posted by Conrau KNo being proclaimed? Have you not paid attention to the point that for over a hundred years now we have been doing this in over 230 lands? No one else including your religion combined comes close. How many hours a month do all your church members go out to all those lands and tell about the signs so that they can make the needed adjustments in their life's to recognize them and do what Jesus requires of us? We do over a billion hours a year. Why does this not qualify as a proclamation?
No. Your relentless speculation about the end-times is totally opposed to what Jesus taught. Jesus said to be wary of those who claim to know when the day will be or who look for signs:
[quote]32 But of that day or hour no man knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father. 33 Take heed, watch and pray. For you know not when the time is ...[text shortened]... stion. Perhaps it is time for humility on your part to admit that God's mind is not so obvious.
And again Jesus himself said to look and see the signs. If not humans then who is to see them?
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Originally posted by galveston75I think you will find that your religion does not compare. Catholics can be found in every country and many face persecution. Only recently several priests were killed in Iraq by Muslim terrorists. But this is not a case of which is the best church. The fact is that the gospel has not been proclaimed to all nations, by JWs or Catholics. Despite intense evangelical activity from both, many remain ignorant of the gospel and there is widespread suppression of the gospel.
No being proclaimed? Have you not paid attention to the point that for over a hundred years now we have been doing this in over 230 lands? No one else including your religion combined comes close. How many hours a month do all your church members go out to all those lands and tell about the signs so that they can make the needed adjustments in their lif And again Jesus himself said to look and see the signs. If not humans then who is to see them?
And anyway, Catholics do not deny that signs will precede the apocalypse. For example, looking at Scripture, you can see many the signs: the preaching of the gospel to all nations (not yet fulfilled); the conversion of the Jews (again, not yet fulfilled); the return of Elijah and Elisha (not fulfilled); a great apostasy (hey, don't you think the great apostasy happened with the birth of Catholicism?); and then the reign of the anti-Christ, perturbation of nature, universal conflagration and the coming of the Son of Man. As you can see, none of these events has happened yet.
Again, I just don't see the point of this kind of speculation. Many have claimed that the end of the world is just around the corner. Many Christians in the early Church believed Christ would come after a thousand years. He didn't. Jesus himself said it is not for us to know. He certainly taught us the signs but he did not instruct us to be constantly looking for them. The incessant preoccupation with the end of the world, which really only characterises the imagination of Protestants, seems to me to be of no practical importance.