1. Standard membersonshiponline
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    15 Jun '15 17:261 edit
    FOX'S BOOK OF MARTYRS
    CHAPTER II


    The Ten Primitive Persecutions
    The First Persecution, Under Nero, A.D. 67


    The first persecution of the Church took place in the year 67, under Nero, the sixth emperor of Rome. This monarch reigned for the space of five years, with tolerable credit to himself, but then gave way to the greatest extravagancy of temper, and to the most atrocious barbarities. Among other diabolical whims, he ordered that the city of Rome should be set on fire, which order was executed by his officers, guards, and servants. While the imperial city was in flames, he went up to the tower of Macaenas, played upon his harp, sung the song of the burning of Troy, and openly declared that 'he wished the ruin of all things before his death.' Besides the noble pile, called the Circus, many other palaces and houses were consumed; several thousands perished in the flames, were smothered in the smoke, or buried beneath the ruins.

    This dreadful conflagration continued nine days; when Nero, finding that his conduct was greatly blamed, and a severe odium cast upon him, determined to lay the whole upon the Christians, at once to excuse himself, and have an opportunity of glutting his sight with new cruelties. This was the occasion of the first persecution; and the barbarities exercised on the Christians were such as even excited the commiseration of the Romans themselves. Nero even refined upon cruelty, and contrived all manner of punishments for the Christians that the most infernal imagination could design. In particular, he had some sewed up in skins of wild beasts, and then worried by dogs until they expired; and others dressed in shirts made stiff with wax, fixed to axletrees, and set on fire in his gardens, in order to illuminate them. This persecution was general throughout the whole Roman Empire; but it rather increased than diminished the spirit of Christianity. In the course of it, St. Paul and St. Peter were martyred.

    To their names may be added, Erastus, chamberlain of Corinth; Aristarchus, the Macedonian, and Trophimus, an Ephesians, converted by St. Paul, and fellow-laborer with him, Joseph, commonly called Barsabas, and Ananias, bishop of Damascus; each of the Seventy.


    My bold.

    John Fox (or Foxe) was born at Boston, in Lincolnshire, in 1517, where his parents are stated to have lived in respectable circumstances. He was deprived of his father at an early age; and notwithstanding his mother soon married again, he still remained under the parental roof. From an early display of talents and inclination to learning, his friends were induced to send him to Oxford, in order to cultivate and bring them to maturity.

    During his residence at this place, he was distinguished for the excellence and acuteness of his intellect, which was improved by the emulation of his fellow collegians, united to an indefatigable zeal and industry on his part. These qualities soon gained him the admiration of all; and as a reward for his exertions and amiable conduct, he was chosen fellow of Magdalen College; which was accounted a great honor in the university, and seldom bestowed unless in cases of great distinction. ...

    He is said to have often affirmed that the first matter which occasioned his search into the popish doctrine was that he saw divers things, most repugnant in their nature to one another, forced upon men at the same time; upon this foundation his resolution and intended obedience to that Church were somewhat shaken, and by degrees a dislike to the rest took place.

    His first care was to look into both the ancient and modern history of the Church; to ascertain its beginning and progress; to consider the causes of all those controversies which in the meantime had sprung up, and diligently to weigh their effects, solidity, infirmities, etc.


    http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/begin.htm
  2. Subscribersonhouse
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    15 Jun '15 17:44
    Originally posted by sonship
    [b] FOX'S BOOK OF MARTYRS
    CHAPTER II


    The Ten Primitive Persecutions
    The First Persecution, Under Nero, A.D. 67


    The first persecution of the Church took place in the year 67, under Nero, the sixth emperor of Rome. This monarch reigned for the space of five years, with tolerable credit to himself, but then gave way to the greates ...[text shortened]... ir effects, solidity, infirmities, etc.


    http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/begin.htm[/b]
    Wow, talk about holding a grudge🙂
  3. Standard membersonshiponline
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    15 Jun '15 18:045 edits
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Wow, talk about holding a grudge🙂
    LOL!

    If it ain't one thing with you guys its another.
    Your buddy twhitehead was so sure I was giving Nero a bad rap for saying he torched Christians to light up his garden.

    Oh, don't believe everything you read on the Internet - he said.

    In essence I said - "If I am not telling the truth open a thread and set the record straight."

    He hasn't yet. So I had a few extra minutes and verified that I recall that "factoid" as he called it as something I once read.
    --- not on the Internet but before. It just so happens now [ edited ] to be on the Internet.

    And now he'll probably be demanding a written apology that I paraphrased the exchange, or didn't quote him exactly.
  4. Standard membersonshiponline
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    15 Jun '15 18:211 edit
    Now if this has sunk in I will make a comment.

    Foxe wrote above here -

    This persecution was general throughout the whole Roman Empire; but it rather increased than diminished the spirit of Christianity. In the course of it, St. Paul and St. Peter were martyred.


    We should not get the impression that there was CONTINUOUS severe persecution from the Roman government. There were periods of leaving the Christians alone.

    And this I will not paste in because I am reading it from a book on my desk -

    I simply said that Nero persecuted the Christians and burnt some as human torches for his garden. This is acknowledged ancient history.
  5. Joined
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    15 Jun '15 18:381 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    Now if this has sunk in I will make a comment.

    Foxe wrote above here -

    This persecution was general throughout the whole Roman Empire; but it rather increased than diminished the spirit of Christianity. In the course of it, St. Paul and St. Peter were martyred.


    We should not get the impression that there was CONTINUOUS severe ...[text shortened]... y and Stalin was a theology student, or Nero wasn't really mean to followers of Jesus after-all.
    Persecution is second nature to mankind. Whoever is in power persecutes those whom they perceive to be threats.

    For example, only when Constantine turned the Christian religion around as a means to conquer with the sword and persecute others for his own power did the Christian persecution end. Constantine must have seen the success of the spread of the religion despite the persecution, and just reckoned it would be a good religion to use.
  6. Standard membersonshiponline
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    15 Jun '15 20:04
    Originally posted by whodey
    Persecution is second nature to mankind. Whoever is in power persecutes those whom they perceive to be threats.

    For example, only when Constantine turned the Christian religion around as a means to conquer with the sword and persecute others for his own power did the Christian persecution end. Constantine must have seen the success of the spread of the religion despite the persecution, and just reckoned it would be a good religion to use.
    This is a natural tendency. "How can we channel this positive energy into something that benefits the worldly system?"

    God has a kingdom He is building. That is a realm in which God and man are mingled as one.
  7. Cape Town
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    15 Jun '15 20:51
    Originally posted by sonship
    Your buddy twhitehead was so sure I was giving Nero a bad rap for saying he torched Christians to light up his garden.

    Oh, don't believe everything you read on the Internet - he said.
    And I am still sure you are giving Nero a bad rap and I still hold that you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet, even if it happens to be a book written in the 16th century - which doesn't list its sources.

    He hasn't yet. So I had a few extra minutes and verified that I recall that "factoid" as he called it as something I once read.
    --- not on the Internet but before. It just so happens now [ edited ] to be on the Internet.

    So you did read it, but is it true?
  8. Cape Town
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    15 Jun '15 21:11
    Originally posted by sonship
    I simply said that Nero persecuted the Christians and burnt some as human torches for his garden. This is acknowledged ancient history.
    No, it most definitely is not. Don't believe everything you read in history books. No wonder the thread on the historicity of Jesus didn't go very far.

    In case you are wondering, the person you quoted got his information from The annals of Tacitus.
    https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Annals_(Tacitus)/Book_15#44

    44[edit]
    Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.


    Remember this was written about 30 years after Nero.
  9. SubscriberSuzianne
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    15 Jun '15 21:22
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car.


    Remember this was written about 30 years after Nero.
    They had cars back then?
  10. Standard membersonshiponline
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    15 Jun '15 21:452 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.


    Compare to Mr. Foxe -

    Nero even refined upon cruelty, and contrived all manner of punishments for the Christians that the most infernal imagination could design. In particular, he had some sewed up in skins of wild beasts, and then worried by dogs until they expired; and others dressed in shirts made stiff with wax, fixed to axletrees, and set on fire in his gardens, in order to illuminate them.


    The two quotes essentially agree. I guess this is called disagreeing with someone by agreeing with them.

    No, it most definitely is not. Don't believe everything you read in history books. No wonder the thread on the historicity of Jesus didn't go very far.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Most certainly Mr. Foxe's information essentially echoes the annals of the example from Tacitus you submit.

    I do not know where the specific details about the shirts of wax.
    I see no reason to assume those details were fabricated.

    As far as your thread on Richard Carrier is concerned? You can take it as far as you want. I think its a waste of my time right now.

    But that is your style, bragging that someone doesn't want to chat endlessly over some fringe scholarship. I leave Richard Carrier to the other historians who expose his fringe ideas.
  11. Standard membersonshiponline
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    15 Jun '15 21:492 edits
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    15 Jun '15 21:55
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    And I am still sure you are giving Nero a bad rap and I still hold that you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet, even if it happens to be a book written in the 16th century - which doesn't list its sources.

    [b]He hasn't yet. So I had a few extra minutes and verified that I recall that "factoid" as he called it as something I once read ...[text shortened]... just so happens now [ edited ] to be on the Internet.

    So you did read it, but is it true?[/b]
    Just out of curiosity, do you believe in the Holocaust?
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    15 Jun '15 22:18
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    No, it most definitely is not. Don't believe everything you read in history books. No wonder the thread on the historicity of Jesus didn't go very far.

    In case you are wondering, the person you quoted got his information from The annals of Tacitus.
    https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Annals_(Tacitus)/Book_15#44

    44[edit]
    Such indeed were the ...[text shortened]... that they were being destroyed.


    Remember this was written about 30 years after Nero.
    "Don't believe everything you read in history books."

    Perhaps you should take your own advice and not believe everything you read in science books either. 😉
  14. Cape Town
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    16 Jun '15 07:59
    Originally posted by sonship
    The two quotes essentially agree. I guess this is called disagreeing with someone by agreeing with them.
    You will notice that I never claimed they disagreed. I will note however that there are subtle differences in the retelling.

    Also note that the whole passage has been translated differently by others:
    http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/christians.htm

    Most certainly Mr. Foxe's information essentially echoes the annals of the example from Tacitus you submit.
    I agree. That doesn't mean it actually happened.
  15. Cape Town
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    16 Jun '15 07:591 edit
    Originally posted by josephw
    Perhaps you should take your own advice and not believe everything you read in science books either. 😉
    I don't, and never have. I question everything, and so should you.
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