Plumb line, Spirit level, yard stick, evil

I do not get those that think if they can do away with religion that people will
not be doing evil things. We due to our hearts act out in certain ways due to
our nature, the 'reasons' or 'causes' for us to act that is driven mainly due to
our hearts and what is in them. If we could do away with religion, and I do not
believe it is possible, nothing would change other than the words we would be
using to justify our actions or in-actions, I also imagine things would be much
worse too since restraints would be greatly deminished upon mankinds lusts.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I do not get those that think if they can do away with religion that people will not be doing evil things.

Do you think if we were to do away with all religions except Christianity, that there would be less instances of people doing evil things?

Originally posted by FMF
Do you think if we were to do away with all religions except Christianity, that there would be less instances of people doing evil things?

I'm sure he could live with that.....

Originally posted by FMF
Do you think if we were to do away with all religions except Christianity, that there would be less instances of people doing evil things?

No, If all Christianity is, is a label than it does not change the human heart which does things it should not.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
No, If all Christianity is, is a label than it does not change the human heart which does things it should not.
Kelly

I wasn't referring to "labels". If you don't want to answer my previous question, it's fine by me.

So. Do you think Christianity is used by some people to disguise or distract from the evil things they do?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I do not get those that think if they can do away with religion that people will
not be doing evil things. We due to our hearts act out in certain ways due to
our nature, the 'reasons' or 'causes' for us to act that is driven mainly due to
our hearts and what is in them. If we could do away with religion, and I do not
believe it is possible, nothing wou ...[text shortened]... e much
worse too since restraints would be greatly diminished upon mankind's lusts.
Kelly

And this would be supported by the big increase in crime rates and other metrics for
countries with lower levels of religious belief...

No wait. The opposite is true isn't it.

Of course getting rid of religion (and other superstitions and belief in supernatural) would
not stop all crime or all evil. Nobody (sane) is claiming that, and it is a straw man to claim
otherwise.

However the evidence strongly indicates that the less religion a country or state or region has
that the safer and more law abiding the people in that area are.
In fact the same applies to just about every societal metric you care to pick.
You get lower rates of teen pregnancies, lower abortion rates, lower crime, better life expectancy,
better literacy and numeracy rates, in fact just about everything we measure as indicators of societal
health correlates negatively with religiosity. (in other words they get worse the more religious a place is)

So you can imagine that a world without religion would be worse as much as you like, but the data
supports the opposite conclusion.


And I take it as a serious insult that you think I need a god and threat of punishment (either in this world
or in a fabled afterlife) to make me act morally.
How pathetic and morally moribund do you have to be to need a deity to tell you that killing people is
generally wrong?

Morality does not and can not come from god, or belief in god.
It never has and never will.

Originally posted by FMF
I wasn't referring to "labels". If you don't want to answer my previous question, it's fine by me.

So. Do you think Christianity is used by some people to disguise or distract from the evil things they do?

Yes, people use Christianity to hide the evil they do as they use all other things
from being a teacher and so on. People have within them the desires to do
whatever it takes to get what they want. People will kill in the name of life,
they will go to war in the name of the Prince of Peace, they will be comletely
intolerant in the name of tolerance, they have the abilities to act out in the
most hateful ways in the name of civility.
Kelly

Originally posted by googlefudge
And this would be supported by the big increase in crime rates and other metrics for
countries with lower levels of religious belief...

No wait. The opposite is true isn't it.

Of course getting rid of religion (and other superstitions and belief in supernatural) would
not stop all crime or all evil. Nobody (sane) is claiming that, and it is a s ...[text shortened]...

Morality does not and can not come from god, or belief in god.
It never has and never will.

I'm not sure how you'd gather that data, but I'm willing to look at it.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm not sure how you'd gather that data, but I'm willing to look at it.
Kelly

You're not sure how you gather crime statistics and literacy rates?
Seriously?

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201103/misinformation-and-facts-about-secularism-and-religion

http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/Zuckerman_on_Atheism.pdf

http://www.atheistmedia.com/2008/10/phil-zuckerman-society-without-god.html

http://www.amazon.com/Society-without-God-Religious-Contentment/dp/0814797148/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225283258&sr=1-1

Originally posted by KellyJay
I do not get those that think if they can do away with religion that people will
not be doing evil things. We due to our hearts act out in certain ways due to
our nature, the 'reasons' or 'causes' for us to act that is driven mainly due to
our hearts and what is in them. If we could do away with religion, and I do not
believe it is possible, nothing wou ...[text shortened]... be much
worse too since restraints would be greatly deminished upon mankinds lusts.
Kelly

Who thinks if they "can do away with religion that people will not be doing evil things?" Does anybody here say "I do" to that question, without qualification?

Originally posted by googlefudge
...the evidence strongly indicates that the less religion a country or state or region has
that the safer and more law abiding the people in that area are. In fact the same applies to just about every societal metric you care to pick. You get lower rates of teen pregnancies, lower abortion rates, lower crime, better life expectancy, better literacy and ...[text shortened]... lates negatively with religiosity. (in other words they get worse the more religious a place is)

I'd be interested in having a read of the [strong] evidence you are referring to with these claims please?
Cheers.

Originally posted by divegeester
I'd be interested in having a read of the [strong] evidence you are referring to with these claims please?
Cheers.

Well the links I posted above are a good start.

This one in particular (and it lists all the studies it cites)

http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/Zuckerman_on_Atheism.pdf

Originally posted by googlefudge
You're not sure how you gather crime statistics and literacy rates?
Seriously?

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201103/misinformation-and-facts-about-secularism-and-religion

http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/Zuckerman_on_Atheism.pdf

http://www.atheistmedia.com/2008/10/phil-zuckerman-society-without-god. ...[text shortened]... ithout-God-Religious-Contentment/dp/0814797148/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225283258&sr=1-1

Do you have any links that are written by people who have no bias in this
discusion against or for God?

I was hoping you'd have some independent links that covered the topics
instead of links written by people who share you views as if they can be a
source without bias.
Kelly

No one has said anything about the perception left upon the public about "religious people" by pop media.

There may be 100 wonderful deeds in a week done towards others by people of faith. Nothing outside of the circles of faith reports on them. But if one "clergyman" or one "priest" has a scandel it is promptly sensationalized around the world. Popular Media experiences a feeding frenzy on anything religious and scandelous.

You are sure to hear of some scandelous evil act done by someone associated with religion. That makes "news". And skeptical folks loving to collect scandelous reports loud the impression that "religion spoils everything" or that only an endless procession of evil acts are produced by people of faith.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Do you have any links that are written by people who have no bias in this
discusion against or for God?

I was hoping you'd have some independent links that covered the topics
instead of links written by people who share you views as if they can be a
source without bias.
Kelly

So any truth in the data is disregarded if you think the researcher is biased?