1. Standard memberKellyJay
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    25 Mar '12 14:18
    I do not get those that think if they can do away with religion that people will
    not be doing evil things. We due to our hearts act out in certain ways due to
    our nature, the 'reasons' or 'causes' for us to act that is driven mainly due to
    our hearts and what is in them. If we could do away with religion, and I do not
    believe it is possible, nothing would change other than the words we would be
    using to justify our actions or in-actions, I also imagine things would be much
    worse too since restraints would be greatly deminished upon mankinds lusts.
    Kelly
  2. SubscriberFMF
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    25 Mar '12 14:27
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I do not get those that think if they can do away with religion that people will not be doing evil things.
    Do you think if we were to do away with all religions except Christianity, that there would be less instances of people doing evil things?
  3. Subscribersonhouse
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    25 Mar '12 14:44
    Originally posted by FMF
    Do you think if we were to do away with all religions except Christianity, that there would be less instances of people doing evil things?
    I'm sure he could live with that.....
  4. Standard memberKellyJay
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    25 Mar '12 14:51
    Originally posted by FMF
    Do you think if we were to do away with all religions except Christianity, that there would be less instances of people doing evil things?
    No, If all Christianity is, is a label than it does not change the human heart which does things it should not.
    Kelly
  5. SubscriberFMF
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    25 Mar '12 14:54
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    No, If all Christianity is, is a label than it does not change the human heart which does things it should not.
    Kelly
    I wasn't referring to "labels". If you don't want to answer my previous question, it's fine by me.

    So. Do you think Christianity is used by some people to disguise or distract from the evil things they do?
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    25 Mar '12 14:59
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I do not get those that think if they can do away with religion that people will
    not be doing evil things. We due to our hearts act out in certain ways due to
    our nature, the 'reasons' or 'causes' for us to act that is driven mainly due to
    our hearts and what is in them. If we could do away with religion, and I do not
    believe it is possible, nothing wou ...[text shortened]... e much
    worse too since restraints would be greatly diminished upon mankind's lusts.
    Kelly
    And this would be supported by the big increase in crime rates and other metrics for
    countries with lower levels of religious belief...

    No wait. The opposite is true isn't it.

    Of course getting rid of religion (and other superstitions and belief in supernatural) would
    not stop all crime or all evil. Nobody (sane) is claiming that, and it is a straw man to claim
    otherwise.

    However the evidence strongly indicates that the less religion a country or state or region has
    that the safer and more law abiding the people in that area are.
    In fact the same applies to just about every societal metric you care to pick.
    You get lower rates of teen pregnancies, lower abortion rates, lower crime, better life expectancy,
    better literacy and numeracy rates, in fact just about everything we measure as indicators of societal
    health correlates negatively with religiosity. (in other words they get worse the more religious a place is)

    So you can imagine that a world without religion would be worse as much as you like, but the data
    supports the opposite conclusion.


    And I take it as a serious insult that you think I need a god and threat of punishment (either in this world
    or in a fabled afterlife) to make me act morally.
    How pathetic and morally moribund do you have to be to need a deity to tell you that killing people is
    generally wrong?

    Morality does not and can not come from god, or belief in god.
    It never has and never will.
  7. Standard memberKellyJay
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    25 Mar '12 15:02
    Originally posted by FMF
    I wasn't referring to "labels". If you don't want to answer my previous question, it's fine by me.

    So. Do you think Christianity is used by some people to disguise or distract from the evil things they do?
    Yes, people use Christianity to hide the evil they do as they use all other things
    from being a teacher and so on. People have within them the desires to do
    whatever it takes to get what they want. People will kill in the name of life,
    they will go to war in the name of the Prince of Peace, they will be comletely
    intolerant in the name of tolerance, they have the abilities to act out in the
    most hateful ways in the name of civility.
    Kelly
  8. Standard memberKellyJay
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    25 Mar '12 15:03
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    And this would be supported by the big increase in crime rates and other metrics for
    countries with lower levels of religious belief...

    No wait. The opposite is true isn't it.

    Of course getting rid of religion (and other superstitions and belief in supernatural) would
    not stop all crime or all evil. Nobody (sane) is claiming that, and it is a s ...[text shortened]...

    Morality does not and can not come from god, or belief in god.
    It never has and never will.
    I'm not sure how you'd gather that data, but I'm willing to look at it.
    Kelly
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    25 Mar '12 15:27
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I'm not sure how you'd gather that data, but I'm willing to look at it.
    Kelly
    You're not sure how you gather crime statistics and literacy rates?
    Seriously?

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201103/misinformation-and-facts-about-secularism-and-religion

    http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/Zuckerman_on_Atheism.pdf

    http://www.atheistmedia.com/2008/10/phil-zuckerman-society-without-god.html

    http://www.amazon.com/Society-without-God-Religious-Contentment/dp/0814797148/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225283258&sr=1-1
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    25 Mar '12 17:32
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I do not get those that think if they can do away with religion that people will
    not be doing evil things. We due to our hearts act out in certain ways due to
    our nature, the 'reasons' or 'causes' for us to act that is driven mainly due to
    our hearts and what is in them. If we could do away with religion, and I do not
    believe it is possible, nothing wou ...[text shortened]... be much
    worse too since restraints would be greatly deminished upon mankinds lusts.
    Kelly
    Who thinks if they "can do away with religion that people will not be doing evil things?" Does anybody here say "I do" to that question, without qualification?
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    25 Mar '12 17:54
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    ...the evidence strongly indicates that the less religion a country or state or region has
    that the safer and more law abiding the people in that area are. In fact the same applies to just about every societal metric you care to pick. You get lower rates of teen pregnancies, lower abortion rates, lower crime, better life expectancy, better literacy and ...[text shortened]... lates negatively with religiosity. (in other words they get worse the more religious a place is)
    I'd be interested in having a read of the [strong] evidence you are referring to with these claims please?
    Cheers.
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    25 Mar '12 19:42
    Originally posted by divegeester
    I'd be interested in having a read of the [strong] evidence you are referring to with these claims please?
    Cheers.
    Well the links I posted above are a good start.

    This one in particular (and it lists all the studies it cites)

    http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/Zuckerman_on_Atheism.pdf
  13. Standard memberKellyJay
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    25 Mar '12 23:16
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    You're not sure how you gather crime statistics and literacy rates?
    Seriously?

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201103/misinformation-and-facts-about-secularism-and-religion

    http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/Zuckerman_on_Atheism.pdf

    http://www.atheistmedia.com/2008/10/phil-zuckerman-society-without-god. ...[text shortened]... ithout-God-Religious-Contentment/dp/0814797148/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225283258&sr=1-1
    Do you have any links that are written by people who have no bias in this
    discusion against or for God?

    I was hoping you'd have some independent links that covered the topics
    instead of links written by people who share you views as if they can be a
    source without bias.
    Kelly
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    26 Mar '12 00:325 edits
    No one has said anything about the perception left upon the public about "religious people" by pop media.

    There may be 100 wonderful deeds in a week done towards others by people of faith. Nothing outside of the circles of faith reports on them. But if one "clergyman" or one "priest" has a scandel it is promptly sensationalized around the world. Popular Media experiences a feeding frenzy on anything religious and scandelous.

    You are sure to hear of some scandelous evil act done by someone associated with religion. That makes "news". And skeptical folks loving to collect scandelous reports loud the impression that "religion spoils everything" or that only an endless procession of evil acts are produced by people of faith.
  15. Subscribersonhouse
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    26 Mar '12 01:13
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Do you have any links that are written by people who have no bias in this
    discusion against or for God?

    I was hoping you'd have some independent links that covered the topics
    instead of links written by people who share you views as if they can be a
    source without bias.
    Kelly
    So any truth in the data is disregarded if you think the researcher is biased?
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