25 Mar 12
I do not get those that think if they can do away with religion that people will
not be doing evil things. We due to our hearts act out in certain ways due to
our nature, the 'reasons' or 'causes' for us to act that is driven mainly due to
our hearts and what is in them. If we could do away with religion, and I do not
believe it is possible, nothing would change other than the words we would be
using to justify our actions or in-actions, I also imagine things would be much
worse too since restraints would be greatly deminished upon mankinds lusts.
Kelly
25 Mar 12
Originally posted by KellyJayDo you think if we were to do away with all religions except Christianity, that there would be less instances of people doing evil things?
I do not get those that think if they can do away with religion that people will not be doing evil things.
25 Mar 12
Originally posted by KellyJayI wasn't referring to "labels". If you don't want to answer my previous question, it's fine by me.
No, If all Christianity is, is a label than it does not change the human heart which does things it should not.
Kelly
So. Do you think Christianity is used by some people to disguise or distract from the evil things they do?
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25 Mar 12
Originally posted by KellyJayAnd this would be supported by the big increase in crime rates and other metrics for
I do not get those that think if they can do away with religion that people will
not be doing evil things. We due to our hearts act out in certain ways due to
our nature, the 'reasons' or 'causes' for us to act that is driven mainly due to
our hearts and what is in them. If we could do away with religion, and I do not
believe it is possible, nothing wou ...[text shortened]... e much
worse too since restraints would be greatly diminished upon mankind's lusts.
Kelly
countries with lower levels of religious belief...
No wait. The opposite is true isn't it.
Of course getting rid of religion (and other superstitions and belief in supernatural) would
not stop all crime or all evil. Nobody (sane) is claiming that, and it is a straw man to claim
otherwise.
However the evidence strongly indicates that the less religion a country or state or region has
that the safer and more law abiding the people in that area are.
In fact the same applies to just about every societal metric you care to pick.
You get lower rates of teen pregnancies, lower abortion rates, lower crime, better life expectancy,
better literacy and numeracy rates, in fact just about everything we measure as indicators of societal
health correlates negatively with religiosity. (in other words they get worse the more religious a place is)
So you can imagine that a world without religion would be worse as much as you like, but the data
supports the opposite conclusion.
And I take it as a serious insult that you think I need a god and threat of punishment (either in this world
or in a fabled afterlife) to make me act morally.
How pathetic and morally moribund do you have to be to need a deity to tell you that killing people is
generally wrong?
Morality does not and can not come from god, or belief in god.
It never has and never will.
25 Mar 12
Originally posted by FMFYes, people use Christianity to hide the evil they do as they use all other things
I wasn't referring to "labels". If you don't want to answer my previous question, it's fine by me.
So. Do you think Christianity is used by some people to disguise or distract from the evil things they do?
from being a teacher and so on. People have within them the desires to do
whatever it takes to get what they want. People will kill in the name of life,
they will go to war in the name of the Prince of Peace, they will be comletely
intolerant in the name of tolerance, they have the abilities to act out in the
most hateful ways in the name of civility.
Kelly
25 Mar 12
Originally posted by googlefudgeI'm not sure how you'd gather that data, but I'm willing to look at it.
And this would be supported by the big increase in crime rates and other metrics for
countries with lower levels of religious belief...
No wait. The opposite is true isn't it.
Of course getting rid of religion (and other superstitions and belief in supernatural) would
not stop all crime or all evil. Nobody (sane) is claiming that, and it is a s ...[text shortened]...
Morality does not and can not come from god, or belief in god.
It never has and never will.
Kelly
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25 Mar 12
Originally posted by KellyJayYou're not sure how you gather crime statistics and literacy rates?
I'm not sure how you'd gather that data, but I'm willing to look at it.
Kelly
Seriously?
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201103/misinformation-and-facts-about-secularism-and-religion
http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/Zuckerman_on_Atheism.pdf
http://www.atheistmedia.com/2008/10/phil-zuckerman-society-without-god.html
http://www.amazon.com/Society-without-God-Religious-Contentment/dp/0814797148/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225283258&sr=1-1
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25 Mar 12
Originally posted by KellyJayWho thinks if they "can do away with religion that people will not be doing evil things?" Does anybody here say "I do" to that question, without qualification?
I do not get those that think if they can do away with religion that people will
not be doing evil things. We due to our hearts act out in certain ways due to
our nature, the 'reasons' or 'causes' for us to act that is driven mainly due to
our hearts and what is in them. If we could do away with religion, and I do not
believe it is possible, nothing wou ...[text shortened]... be much
worse too since restraints would be greatly deminished upon mankinds lusts.
Kelly
25 Mar 12
Originally posted by googlefudgeI'd be interested in having a read of the [strong] evidence you are referring to with these claims please?
...the evidence strongly indicates that the less religion a country or state or region has
that the safer and more law abiding the people in that area are. In fact the same applies to just about every societal metric you care to pick. You get lower rates of teen pregnancies, lower abortion rates, lower crime, better life expectancy, better literacy and ...[text shortened]... lates negatively with religiosity. (in other words they get worse the more religious a place is)
Cheers.
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25 Mar 12
Originally posted by divegeesterWell the links I posted above are a good start.
I'd be interested in having a read of the [strong] evidence you are referring to with these claims please?
Cheers.
This one in particular (and it lists all the studies it cites)
http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/Zuckerman_on_Atheism.pdf
25 Mar 12
Originally posted by googlefudgeDo you have any links that are written by people who have no bias in this
You're not sure how you gather crime statistics and literacy rates?
Seriously?
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201103/misinformation-and-facts-about-secularism-and-religion
http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/Zuckerman_on_Atheism.pdf
http://www.atheistmedia.com/2008/10/phil-zuckerman-society-without-god. ...[text shortened]... ithout-God-Religious-Contentment/dp/0814797148/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225283258&sr=1-1
discusion against or for God?
I was hoping you'd have some independent links that covered the topics
instead of links written by people who share you views as if they can be a
source without bias.
Kelly
26 Mar 12
5 edits
No one has said anything about the perception left upon the public about "religious people" by pop media.
There may be 100 wonderful deeds in a week done towards others by people of faith. Nothing outside of the circles of faith reports on them. But if one "clergyman" or one "priest" has a scandel it is promptly sensationalized around the world. Popular Media experiences a feeding frenzy on anything religious and scandelous.
You are sure to hear of some scandelous evil act done by someone associated with religion. That makes "news". And skeptical folks loving to collect scandelous reports loud the impression that "religion spoils everything" or that only an endless procession of evil acts are produced by people of faith.
26 Mar 12
Originally posted by KellyJaySo any truth in the data is disregarded if you think the researcher is biased?
Do you have any links that are written by people who have no bias in this
discusion against or for God?
I was hoping you'd have some independent links that covered the topics
instead of links written by people who share you views as if they can be a
source without bias.
Kelly